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[Music]

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welcome to the skeptic zone

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the podcast from australia for science

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and reason

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yes it's the skeptic zone podcast

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episode number 670

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for the 8th of august 2021 richard

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saunders coming to you from a little

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let's have a look at the skeptic's own

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window

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oh where is it there it is it's a bit

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gray it's a bit

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cold and wet and gray outside today not

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that there are many people out and about

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in sydney

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as we enter our sixth seventh week of

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lockdown

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something like that and sad to say since

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i spoke to you last week the numbers

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have continued

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to rise the numbers of new covered

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infections in sydney specifically

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and a few more around the state and

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i think yesterday it uh yes yesterday it

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was over 300

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so we just don't know what the the

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following week will bring us

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and later on in the skeptic zone we'll

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be talking to you about

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some protests in the city of melbourne

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who only in the last week went into

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lockdown as well

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and as soon as that was announced people

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were out on the streets making nuisances

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of themselves and

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uh well we hope not spreading the virus

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but as of yesterday i have

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received my second dose of astrazeneca

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vaccine so in a couple of weeks i guess

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i will be

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as fully vaccinated as i can be at the

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moment

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and i even got a little digital

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certificate from the australian

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government

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so as we like to say on the show i think

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we like to say it

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in your face anti-vaxxers and so far no

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negative side effects for me but to

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start the show this week

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we speak to our old friend michael

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marshall from the uk

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from good thinking the project director

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of good thinking who's going to fill us

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in

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homeopaths

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yes that old chestnut homeopathy it's

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still there

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in many parts of the world it's still

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being sadly relied upon

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and yes since the covert outbreak came

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along we have been getting news of

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homeopaths

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prescribing magical fairy water

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really it's akin to witchcraft to

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fight covert which is very sad anyway

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michael marshall will tell us about the

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latest news

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about the um government endorsement

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almost of homeopaths or the lack

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there of always a pleasure to catch up

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with marsh

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and i'm sure you'll enjoy this interview

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we also talk about other things like

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conspiracy theories

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and then to round off the show it's back

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to the trove archives and

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something a little bit different and

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speaking of witchcraft we're going to

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look at witchcraft

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references to witchcraft over the years

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in the australian digital archives now

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if you're in sydney and melbourne and

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certain other parts of the world maybe

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you like me have been spending a lot of

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time

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on zoom and other video

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conferencing systems the uh the

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australian skeptics have now

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uh changed we've had to i guess from

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face-to-face meetings to online meetings

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to get our

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uh business done and to discuss

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skeptical matters even skeptics in the

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pub are online

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at the moment but every cloud has a

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silver lining it is a way

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that we can you know adapt and enjoy

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some special moments and even meet new

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people

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over the last year especially

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playing trivia with susan gerbic and

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doing the great australian prediction

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project

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lots of new friends i've met who i've

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never met in person

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and i've heard that teachers some

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teachers have been hooking up with their

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sister schools

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in other parts of the world which i

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think is a fabulous idea so the students

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can talk to each other

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so while the situation is not so good in

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australia at the moment we uh

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we keep trying to look on the bright

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side of things

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but now it's time for me to run

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downstairs

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tiptoe around the sleeping cats who like

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to sleep on the stairs

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and since it's a sort of a cold day here

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in sydney some nice melted cheese on

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toast

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and i always put a few chilies on top

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while i enjoy that

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[Music]

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well folks over the years on the skeptic

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zone podcast we've certainly covered

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many topics and the one that keeps

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coming up

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every now and then throughout the years

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and years and

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almost 13 years i think of the show is

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the old favorite homeopathy

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and we might think of homeopathy in the

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same league the same realm as

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bigfoot ufos and monsters and things

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like that

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ghosts it's one of the good old

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skeptical topics

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but i guess the difference is when it

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comes to homeopathy there is a chance

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there

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it could do real harm to talk to me

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about this and some interesting news

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coming out of the uk

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in regards to homeopathy i have the

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project director from good thinking

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michael marshall hello marsh hey richard

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hey nice to talk to you again it's been

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a little while

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it has it has i mean for some years

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there you were almost a semi-regular

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reporter for the skeptic's owners would

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check in to see how things were going

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the last couple of years has thrown us

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all on a bit of a loop

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i must say i think my listeners because

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of my updates no more or less what's

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happening here in

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australia and especially in sydney

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what's the

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liverpool with covert 19.

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we're actually in a a relatively

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fortunate position at the moment i think

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we're starting to emerge

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from essentially all of the the

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restrictions that we've been living

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under for the last 18 months

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or so we went through quite a rough time

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essentially the

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the plan that the the government here in

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the uk had wasn't to try to

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prevent as many cases as possible and

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try to aim for code with zero

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but to try and just sort of limit

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transmission now and then um and so we

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went we spent much of last uh much of

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the end of last year and

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much of the start the first five months

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of this year in full lockdown but

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we also the government kind of gambled

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very heavily on getting as many vaccines

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in as early as possible and so

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we've got a very high vaccination rate

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in the in the uk i think it's something

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like uh 85 or 90 percent of adults have

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had at least one dose and something like

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70

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of adults have had two doses wow so

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those vaccines are really having a

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strong effect so while we're still

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having

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something like 25 000 cases of corvid a

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day in the uk which is down from

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the 50 000 it was even three weeks ago

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um we're actually seeing far fewer

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hospitalizations than we saw during the

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the second

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and first waves and uh fortunately fewer

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people dying from it it's still

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in double figures of people dying on a

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daily basis but those numbers are

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starting to come down and they're not

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rising

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commensurate with the number of cases

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that are out there so hopefully that

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means the vaccines are

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preventing a lot of people getting it

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and those who do get it aren't getting

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it seriously

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and we're now just in the case of trying

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to get as many people of the remainders

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vaccinated and to vaccinate

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teenagers which the government has just

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announced there they think is a good

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idea to uh to vaccinate kids they were

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holding off on doing that and sort of

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saying well kids can maybe just

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get covered and be okay was kind of the

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plan between the lines but they've

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decided actually

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it turns out vaccinating people is

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better than letting them get ill

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yeah i think i think that's right and

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well you know

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michael don't jump the gun here i mean

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are you suggesting that a mass

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vaccination rollout program is helping

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people

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stay alive i mean are you going that far

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out i mean i know it's going out on a

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limb but i think

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we're at the point now where the

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evidence strongly points towards it uh

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as much as the anti-vaccine movement to

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do what they can to

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to try and push back against it um i've

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spent

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a little while over the last sort of six

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months looking into particular

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anti-vaccine groups and how hard they're

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pushing against it i don't know if

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you've seen

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the white rose the stickers of the white

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rolls that people are putting graffiti

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stickers up

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they're in they're in australia so you

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may well see them um these white

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stickers with anti-vaccine

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um statements on them designed to wake

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up the populace

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um and if you look at the stickers they

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lead you through to a telegram channel

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where people are

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sharing these stickers and sharing

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information i'm just in the middle of

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writing up for um the skeptic here in

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the uk for the magazine

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um all of my investigation into what

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actually happens when you join those

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telegram groups and what you see once

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you're in there because i i've spent

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four months or so trolling around those

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various telegram groups and um it's

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some of the strangest and most

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disturbing stuff i've seen in my

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decade plus of skepticism i'd say it's

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interesting isn't it i mean once you

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scratch the surface of these groups i

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mean there are a lot of people who don't

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who know

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who should know better who don't know

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better who sort of go along they're

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swept up they see a video or two online

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and they're convinced and

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suddenly they turn into anti-vaxxers but

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when you scratch the surface

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it sort of reminds me of what's

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happening here in australia

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the police are catching up with the

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protesters who protested in sydney a

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couple of weeks ago during this delta

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pandemic it was just

285
00:09:45,350 --> 00:09:43,600
bizarre and they're finding that when

286
00:09:46,949 --> 00:09:45,360
they catch up with them

287
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:46,959
they're identified from footage or

288
00:09:51,750 --> 00:09:49,040
whatever that

289
00:09:52,150 --> 00:09:51,760
not only are they summonsed or fined for

290
00:09:55,030 --> 00:09:52,160
for

291
00:09:56,710 --> 00:09:55,040
violation violating health orders but

292
00:09:58,790 --> 00:09:56,720
they're finding all sorts of

293
00:10:00,790 --> 00:09:58,800
bad things in their houses for example

294
00:10:01,430 --> 00:10:00,800
so it's it's interesting it's a very

295
00:10:03,829 --> 00:10:01,440
strange

296
00:10:05,509 --> 00:10:03,839
and not a not a good mix of people yeah

297
00:10:07,190 --> 00:10:05,519
and when you when you spend some time in

298
00:10:08,949 --> 00:10:07,200
in uh in those communities what you find

299
00:10:10,630 --> 00:10:08,959
is i think some people will enter

300
00:10:11,829 --> 00:10:10,640
will start to see some anti-vac stuff

301
00:10:13,030 --> 00:10:11,839
and then they'll see some of the weirder

302
00:10:14,470 --> 00:10:13,040
stuff and they'll either

303
00:10:16,870 --> 00:10:14,480
never speak again in that channel or

304
00:10:18,310 --> 00:10:16,880
they'll leave but other people will

305
00:10:19,990 --> 00:10:18,320
will start following the anti-vac stuff

306
00:10:21,350 --> 00:10:20,000
and following the there is no pandemic

307
00:10:23,030 --> 00:10:21,360
it's all fake and then they'll follow

308
00:10:23,910 --> 00:10:23,040
the logic that's presented to them that

309
00:10:26,069 --> 00:10:23,920
if this is fake

310
00:10:27,829 --> 00:10:26,079
somebody is faking it who's faking it

311
00:10:29,030 --> 00:10:27,839
well it's the people really in control

312
00:10:30,949 --> 00:10:29,040
it's your bill gates it's your george

313
00:10:31,990 --> 00:10:30,959
soros and before you know it you're

314
00:10:33,829 --> 00:10:32,000
starting to see

315
00:10:35,509 --> 00:10:33,839
anti-semitic conspiracy theories about

316
00:10:36,710 --> 00:10:35,519
how it's jewish people who run the world

317
00:10:37,670 --> 00:10:36,720
and they're trying to do all this stuff

318
00:10:40,150 --> 00:10:37,680
on purpose and it

319
00:10:41,990 --> 00:10:40,160
it just really does spill into these

320
00:10:42,710 --> 00:10:42,000
other conspiracy areas i see a lot of

321
00:10:44,630 --> 00:10:42,720
stuff around

322
00:10:46,150 --> 00:10:44,640
freeman of the land um you don't need to

323
00:10:47,670 --> 00:10:46,160
comply with government orders to stay

324
00:10:48,630 --> 00:10:47,680
home because government laws don't apply

325
00:10:50,389 --> 00:10:48,640
to you which is why you should stop

326
00:10:51,910 --> 00:10:50,399
paying your taxes because you are a

327
00:10:53,750 --> 00:10:51,920
sovereign citizen and the government is

328
00:10:54,630 --> 00:10:53,760
just trying to take you for your your

329
00:10:56,310 --> 00:10:54,640
money and it's it's

330
00:10:58,389 --> 00:10:56,320
all of these beliefs kind of cluster

331
00:10:59,430 --> 00:10:58,399
together on the times of extreme stress

332
00:11:00,470 --> 00:10:59,440
as we're all going through and some

333
00:11:02,630 --> 00:11:00,480
people find

334
00:11:03,590 --> 00:11:02,640
answers in these grand narratives that

335
00:11:05,829 --> 00:11:03,600
aren't true but

336
00:11:06,630 --> 00:11:05,839
um at least give them something to to

337
00:11:08,710 --> 00:11:06,640
think well

338
00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:08,720
maybe i'm right to distrust the vaccine

339
00:11:11,829 --> 00:11:10,320
maybe i'm right to still want to go out

340
00:11:12,790 --> 00:11:11,839
to the pub without a mascot and things

341
00:11:14,069 --> 00:11:12,800
like that

342
00:11:15,350 --> 00:11:14,079
i'm in the right and here's all these

343
00:11:16,470 --> 00:11:15,360
grand narratives to support it but

344
00:11:18,470 --> 00:11:16,480
before you know it you're in

345
00:11:19,910 --> 00:11:18,480
really really dodgy territory yeah you

346
00:11:21,350 --> 00:11:19,920
get into dodgy territory and there are a

347
00:11:22,550 --> 00:11:21,360
lot of dodgy people behind these

348
00:11:24,870 --> 00:11:22,560
conspiracy theories

349
00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:24,880
as we've discovered here ourselves but

350
00:11:27,829 --> 00:11:26,160
that's that's

351
00:11:29,430 --> 00:11:27,839
such an interesting topic marsh and

352
00:11:32,630 --> 00:11:29,440
that's a good topic maybe for

353
00:11:35,110 --> 00:11:32,640
another time as my listeners know um i

354
00:11:35,670 --> 00:11:35,120
treat conspiracy theories very seriously

355
00:11:37,670 --> 00:11:35,680
i think

356
00:11:38,949 --> 00:11:37,680
they're the root of many problems but

357
00:11:41,190 --> 00:11:38,959
let's talk about

358
00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:41,200
what uh came to my attention i was just

359
00:11:43,990 --> 00:11:42,320
sitting at home

360
00:11:45,990 --> 00:11:44,000
well i'm not doing much else these days

361
00:11:49,269 --> 00:11:46,000
folks i'm sitting at home

362
00:11:52,550 --> 00:11:49,279
minding my own business when into my

363
00:11:53,269 --> 00:11:52,560
uh inbox here on my uh my computer

364
00:11:55,350 --> 00:11:53,279
system

365
00:11:56,870 --> 00:11:55,360
comes the latest news letter from good

366
00:11:59,829 --> 00:11:56,880
thinking the august

367
00:12:01,590 --> 00:11:59,839
2021 newsletter which says good thinking

368
00:12:04,629 --> 00:12:01,600
welcomes new standards from

369
00:12:06,310 --> 00:12:04,639
the professional standards authority and

370
00:12:09,190 --> 00:12:06,320
the withdrawal

371
00:12:10,389 --> 00:12:09,200
of the society of homeopaths marsh what

372
00:12:12,230 --> 00:12:10,399
is this all about

373
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:12,240
yeah this is actually really interesting

374
00:12:14,949 --> 00:12:14,079
news and really exciting news uh for us

375
00:12:17,670 --> 00:12:14,959
so i think

376
00:12:19,509 --> 00:12:17,680
i've been on the show a couple of times

377
00:12:21,350 --> 00:12:19,519
um going back into 2019

378
00:12:22,550 --> 00:12:21,360
talking about some of the legal cases

379
00:12:23,990 --> 00:12:22,560
and some of the work that we were doing

380
00:12:25,990 --> 00:12:24,000
with good thinking to challenge

381
00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:26,000
the accreditation of the society

382
00:12:29,829 --> 00:12:27,920
homeopaths and you know to give you the

383
00:12:31,670 --> 00:12:29,839
background on it uh just to recap

384
00:12:33,990 --> 00:12:31,680
um the society homeopaths it was

385
00:12:35,590 --> 00:12:34,000
accredited by the professional standards

386
00:12:36,710 --> 00:12:35,600
authority which is a government agency

387
00:12:39,190 --> 00:12:36,720
which oversees

388
00:12:40,389 --> 00:12:39,200
healthcare bodies so it oversees the

389
00:12:42,629 --> 00:12:40,399
general medical council

390
00:12:43,750 --> 00:12:42,639
it oversees the general dental council

391
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:43,760
it oversees the

392
00:12:47,829 --> 00:12:46,079
nursing and midwifery council but then

393
00:12:50,470 --> 00:12:47,839
it also has this voluntary

394
00:12:51,509 --> 00:12:50,480
register of other healthcare bodies who

395
00:12:52,949 --> 00:12:51,519
can sign up for

396
00:12:55,030 --> 00:12:52,959
accreditation and get to have this

397
00:12:57,110 --> 00:12:55,040
government stamp on their website saying

398
00:12:58,949 --> 00:12:57,120
we're well run we have good processes

399
00:13:00,389 --> 00:12:58,959
and governance where we're legit

400
00:13:02,150 --> 00:13:00,399
and one of the bodies that had signed up

401
00:13:03,910 --> 00:13:02,160
for that was the society of homeopaths

402
00:13:06,230 --> 00:13:03,920
which meant that homeopaths around the

403
00:13:07,670 --> 00:13:06,240
uk were able to put a government stamp

404
00:13:08,470 --> 00:13:07,680
on their websites and in their marketing

405
00:13:10,949 --> 00:13:08,480
materials

406
00:13:11,590 --> 00:13:10,959
that led in our in our estimation in our

407
00:13:13,910 --> 00:13:11,600
opinion

408
00:13:15,590 --> 00:13:13,920
it led consumers and patients to think

409
00:13:17,910 --> 00:13:15,600
well if the government had put a

410
00:13:19,269 --> 00:13:17,920
kite mark on this it must be legit it

411
00:13:21,350 --> 00:13:19,279
must work yes

412
00:13:23,509 --> 00:13:21,360
and so we we took issues with uh with

413
00:13:25,190 --> 00:13:23,519
that back in back in 2019

414
00:13:27,269 --> 00:13:25,200
in particular in 2019 what we took issue

415
00:13:28,150 --> 00:13:27,279
with was the many homeopaths who were

416
00:13:31,750 --> 00:13:28,160
doing something called

417
00:13:32,310 --> 00:13:31,760
cease therapy where which is a an autism

418
00:13:35,269 --> 00:13:32,320
cure

419
00:13:37,590 --> 00:13:35,279
it's it claims that um vaccines caused

420
00:13:38,550 --> 00:13:37,600
autism and that homeopathy with vitamin

421
00:13:40,310 --> 00:13:38,560
c injections

422
00:13:42,470 --> 00:13:40,320
can cure autism right so it's like a

423
00:13:44,470 --> 00:13:42,480
homeopathic cure for autism

424
00:13:45,829 --> 00:13:44,480
and um what we found was there were lots

425
00:13:47,509 --> 00:13:45,839
of homeopaths who were practicing cease

426
00:13:49,030 --> 00:13:47,519
therapy including members or registrants

427
00:13:51,189 --> 00:13:49,040
of the society homeopaths

428
00:13:52,949 --> 00:13:51,199
that the psa this government body

429
00:13:54,389 --> 00:13:52,959
recognized that cease therapy was being

430
00:13:56,230 --> 00:13:54,399
done by members of the uh

431
00:13:57,990 --> 00:13:56,240
society homeopaths recognized that it

432
00:13:58,870 --> 00:13:58,000
was harmful and harmful in particular to

433
00:14:01,189 --> 00:13:58,880
autistic

434
00:14:02,069 --> 00:14:01,199
people so a protected class in terms of

435
00:14:04,389 --> 00:14:02,079
a disability

436
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:04,399
or a sort of a a cognitive uh

437
00:14:08,790 --> 00:14:05,519
neurodivergent

438
00:14:10,470 --> 00:14:08,800
um and uh even though they recognized it

439
00:14:12,069 --> 00:14:10,480
was harmful they continued to reaccredit

440
00:14:12,629 --> 00:14:12,079
the society homopaths and we said well

441
00:14:14,710 --> 00:14:12,639
hang on

442
00:14:16,310 --> 00:14:14,720
you can't say this thing is harmful but

443
00:14:17,110 --> 00:14:16,320
we're to let you let you do it

444
00:14:18,870 --> 00:14:17,120
essentially

445
00:14:20,230 --> 00:14:18,880
that is a bad decision you need to if

446
00:14:21,350 --> 00:14:20,240
you're going to offer this credibility

447
00:14:22,949 --> 00:14:21,360
and legitimacy

448
00:14:24,470 --> 00:14:22,959
the only way it means anything is if you

449
00:14:27,269 --> 00:14:24,480
actually regulate properly

450
00:14:28,870 --> 00:14:27,279
and so when a society is by and large

451
00:14:29,910 --> 00:14:28,880
turning something of a blind eye to this

452
00:14:32,069 --> 00:14:29,920
kind of

453
00:14:33,509 --> 00:14:32,079
unprofessional practice you need to do

454
00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:33,519
something about that

455
00:14:37,269 --> 00:14:35,600
um so we brought a legal challenge we

456
00:14:38,629 --> 00:14:37,279
brought a judicial review to that in in

457
00:14:41,590 --> 00:14:38,639
2019

458
00:14:42,870 --> 00:14:41,600
which was all set to go to court in

459
00:14:45,350 --> 00:14:42,880
early 2020

460
00:14:46,629 --> 00:14:45,360
but because this is an annual process of

461
00:14:48,949 --> 00:14:46,639
the psa

462
00:14:50,150 --> 00:14:48,959
evaluating and accrediting these

463
00:14:50,870 --> 00:14:50,160
different bodies including society

464
00:14:52,310 --> 00:14:50,880
homopaths

465
00:14:54,550 --> 00:14:52,320
by the time we were waiting to go to

466
00:14:55,590 --> 00:14:54,560
court the psa had to do the next

467
00:14:56,710 --> 00:14:55,600
evaluation and next

468
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:56,720
re-accreditation of the society

469
00:14:59,829 --> 00:14:58,560
homeopaths and what happened was at the

470
00:15:01,110 --> 00:14:59,839
start of 2020

471
00:15:02,949 --> 00:15:01,120
they re-accredited the society

472
00:15:03,350 --> 00:15:02,959
homeopaths but what they said was here

473
00:15:05,350 --> 00:15:03,360
are some

474
00:15:06,949 --> 00:15:05,360
very strict conditions you need to meet

475
00:15:08,710 --> 00:15:06,959
within the next six months otherwise

476
00:15:10,710 --> 00:15:08,720
you'll lose your accreditation right

477
00:15:12,389 --> 00:15:10,720
and those conditions were stuff like you

478
00:15:13,509 --> 00:15:12,399
have to ensure none of your members are

479
00:15:16,310 --> 00:15:13,519
doing cease therapy

480
00:15:17,910 --> 00:15:16,320
you can't make vaccine vaccine

481
00:15:19,829 --> 00:15:17,920
misleading vaccine claims you can't

482
00:15:21,030 --> 00:15:19,839
claim to treat autism and various other

483
00:15:22,710 --> 00:15:21,040
things in that kind of area

484
00:15:25,030 --> 00:15:22,720
which is essentially what we were asking

485
00:15:26,389 --> 00:15:25,040
for so that's why at the start of 2020

486
00:15:27,670 --> 00:15:26,399
we stood our legal case down and said

487
00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:27,680
okay you've put these conditions in

488
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:28,240
place

489
00:15:31,269 --> 00:15:29,600
they look pretty good they look close to

490
00:15:32,629 --> 00:15:31,279
what we were looking for let's see how

491
00:15:34,550 --> 00:15:32,639
that plays out

492
00:15:35,990 --> 00:15:34,560
and so that's kind of where we are

493
00:15:36,550 --> 00:15:36,000
that's kind of where we were during last

494
00:15:38,389 --> 00:15:36,560
year

495
00:15:40,470 --> 00:15:38,399
um now what was happening ironically

496
00:15:42,550 --> 00:15:40,480
enough um was while

497
00:15:43,829 --> 00:15:42,560
uh while they were under these

498
00:15:45,509 --> 00:15:43,839
conditions these conditions have don't

499
00:15:47,910 --> 00:15:45,519
make misleading claims about vaccines

500
00:15:49,749 --> 00:15:47,920
a few things came to light so in in late

501
00:15:51,189 --> 00:15:49,759
2019 it came to light that the chair of

502
00:15:54,310 --> 00:15:51,199
the society homopaths

503
00:15:56,069 --> 00:15:54,320
themselves was uh was was making uh

504
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:56,079
misleading claims about vaccines and

505
00:15:59,430 --> 00:15:57,839
the chair lost her job and so in the

506
00:16:01,189 --> 00:15:59,440
middle of 2020 they appointed

507
00:16:02,629 --> 00:16:01,199
the society homily point homeopath

508
00:16:04,870 --> 00:16:02,639
appointed a brand new

509
00:16:06,389 --> 00:16:04,880
professional standards director you know

510
00:16:07,509 --> 00:16:06,399
the director of safeguarding to

511
00:16:09,670 --> 00:16:07,519
safeguard

512
00:16:11,189 --> 00:16:09,680
patients from misleading claims and we

513
00:16:13,030 --> 00:16:11,199
found out that that person that they'd

514
00:16:14,550 --> 00:16:13,040
appointed to the safeguarding role

515
00:16:16,230 --> 00:16:14,560
was someone who was spreading anti-vaxx

516
00:16:17,189 --> 00:16:16,240
misinformation about their autism and

517
00:16:20,230 --> 00:16:17,199
vaccines oh no

518
00:16:22,230 --> 00:16:20,240
so we reported that to the psa and

519
00:16:24,069 --> 00:16:22,240
a whole other tranche of conditions were

520
00:16:26,470 --> 00:16:24,079
imposed on the society homopaths

521
00:16:27,110 --> 00:16:26,480
so that's that's the history um of you

522
00:16:29,430 --> 00:16:27,120
know 19

523
00:16:30,150 --> 00:16:29,440
2019 2020 and that brings us up to what

524
00:16:33,110 --> 00:16:30,160
happened

525
00:16:34,389 --> 00:16:33,120
this year and so what i'm just about i

526
00:16:37,110 --> 00:16:34,399
just like to say michael

527
00:16:38,710 --> 00:16:37,120
you're all these things but being put on

528
00:16:41,189 --> 00:16:38,720
the society

529
00:16:42,629 --> 00:16:41,199
and you got a group like homeopaths with

530
00:16:43,670 --> 00:16:42,639
a lot of mavericks and a lot of

531
00:16:46,550 --> 00:16:43,680
individuals in there

532
00:16:48,150 --> 00:16:46,560
how on earth would they you know abide

533
00:16:49,030 --> 00:16:48,160
by the rules especially when a lot of

534
00:16:50,870 --> 00:16:49,040
them would think

535
00:16:52,790 --> 00:16:50,880
that what they were doing really works

536
00:16:54,310 --> 00:16:52,800
yeah absolutely i honestly think they

537
00:16:55,829 --> 00:16:54,320
the vast majority of homophobes i've

538
00:16:57,509 --> 00:16:55,839
ever spoken to really do believe what

539
00:16:58,949 --> 00:16:57,519
they're doing absolutely works and

540
00:17:00,870 --> 00:16:58,959
it is a real challenge then for the

541
00:17:02,470 --> 00:17:00,880
society of homopaths uh to

542
00:17:03,670 --> 00:17:02,480
tell them you can't make these claims

543
00:17:04,230 --> 00:17:03,680
when they fundamentally believe these

544
00:17:06,549 --> 00:17:04,240
claims

545
00:17:07,270 --> 00:17:06,559
but what we found is yeah yeah which if

546
00:17:09,029 --> 00:17:07,280
we'd have seen

547
00:17:11,270 --> 00:17:09,039
evidence that the society of homeopaths

548
00:17:13,110 --> 00:17:11,280
were really really trying to to do this

549
00:17:13,750 --> 00:17:13,120
to to impose these standards in their

550
00:17:15,189 --> 00:17:13,760
members

551
00:17:16,710 --> 00:17:15,199
and were just failing because their

552
00:17:17,510 --> 00:17:16,720
members were reluctant i mean one of

553
00:17:18,710 --> 00:17:17,520
some of the things that

554
00:17:20,150 --> 00:17:18,720
the society could do is say well if

555
00:17:21,510 --> 00:17:20,160
you're not going to follow these rules

556
00:17:23,110 --> 00:17:21,520
you're kicked off the register you're no

557
00:17:24,069 --> 00:17:23,120
longer allowed to be part of our uh our

558
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:24,079
organization

559
00:17:26,309 --> 00:17:25,280
that would have been something it

560
00:17:27,189 --> 00:17:26,319
wouldn't have been enough but it would

561
00:17:28,630 --> 00:17:27,199
have been something

562
00:17:31,029 --> 00:17:28,640
but what we found instead was the

563
00:17:31,990 --> 00:17:31,039
society was appointing to positions of

564
00:17:33,990 --> 00:17:32,000
authority

565
00:17:35,350 --> 00:17:34,000
people who were of the very same set of

566
00:17:37,430 --> 00:17:35,360
beliefs that they're being told

567
00:17:39,029 --> 00:17:37,440
have to be stamped out in homeopathy so

568
00:17:39,830 --> 00:17:39,039
how seriously were they taking these

569
00:17:41,270 --> 00:17:39,840
concerns

570
00:17:43,510 --> 00:17:41,280
i think that sort of speaks for itself

571
00:17:44,870 --> 00:17:43,520
really yes yes well i can imagine some

572
00:17:46,630 --> 00:17:44,880
of them are really in a difficult

573
00:17:48,230 --> 00:17:46,640
situation of having to tell their

574
00:17:51,190 --> 00:17:48,240
members don't do this when

575
00:17:52,549 --> 00:17:51,200
everyone you know them themselves and

576
00:17:53,909 --> 00:17:52,559
their members thinks it works but

577
00:17:54,230 --> 00:17:53,919
they're still told not to do it it must

578
00:17:57,590 --> 00:17:54,240
be

579
00:17:59,510 --> 00:17:57,600
for them yeah i think so and i think

580
00:18:02,310 --> 00:17:59,520
what ends up happening is you see people

581
00:18:03,669 --> 00:18:02,320
trying thinking abiding by what they

582
00:18:04,950 --> 00:18:03,679
think is the letter of the law and not

583
00:18:06,710 --> 00:18:04,960
the spirit of thought

584
00:18:08,150 --> 00:18:06,720
of the law so you see some homopaths who

585
00:18:09,029 --> 00:18:08,160
were doing cease therapy who said okay

586
00:18:10,470 --> 00:18:09,039
well we won't

587
00:18:13,110 --> 00:18:10,480
call it cease therapy we'll take the

588
00:18:14,549 --> 00:18:13,120
word sisof um but we're still gonna

589
00:18:16,310 --> 00:18:14,559
offer it as a service we'll call it

590
00:18:17,110 --> 00:18:16,320
homeopathic detox therapy or something

591
00:18:18,789 --> 00:18:17,120
like that

592
00:18:20,310 --> 00:18:18,799
um and in fact what the society of

593
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:20,320
homeopaths said

594
00:18:23,590 --> 00:18:22,480
to uh their members their registrants

595
00:18:25,830 --> 00:18:23,600
was you want to

596
00:18:27,830 --> 00:18:25,840
allow to use the word cease and i was

597
00:18:29,990 --> 00:18:27,840
like no that isn't the point the point

598
00:18:30,470 --> 00:18:30,000
isn't what label you call your autism

599
00:18:33,510 --> 00:18:30,480
cure

600
00:18:35,190 --> 00:18:33,520
for autism and autism isn't something

601
00:18:35,750 --> 00:18:35,200
that can or even should be cured that's

602
00:18:38,950 --> 00:18:35,760
not

603
00:18:39,350 --> 00:18:38,960
a cure so the fact is that the society

604
00:18:41,510 --> 00:18:39,360
just

605
00:18:42,950 --> 00:18:41,520
didn't seem to really get it or didn't

606
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:42,960
seem to want to get it neither that's

607
00:18:45,270 --> 00:18:44,480
because they know how hard it would be

608
00:18:46,870 --> 00:18:45,280
to turn

609
00:18:48,230 --> 00:18:46,880
the ship around with all their all their

610
00:18:50,310 --> 00:18:48,240
members still trying to push in the same

611
00:18:52,950 --> 00:18:50,320
direction or because they themselves

612
00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:52,960
don't maybe they didn't believe that it

613
00:18:56,230 --> 00:18:54,160
was right that they shouldn't be

614
00:18:57,669 --> 00:18:56,240
uh offering to cure autism it's hard to

615
00:18:58,390 --> 00:18:57,679
speculate as to what they uh what they

616
00:19:00,070 --> 00:18:58,400
were thinking

617
00:19:01,990 --> 00:19:00,080
but we can only see what they were what

618
00:19:03,110 --> 00:19:02,000
they were doing what a maze what a

619
00:19:05,669 --> 00:19:03,120
rabbit hole for them

620
00:19:07,669 --> 00:19:05,679
it's it's it's mind-boggling so what's

621
00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:07,679
the uh the latest news then bringing us

622
00:19:11,029 --> 00:19:09,039
up to date

623
00:19:13,430 --> 00:19:11,039
yeah so um start of this year there was

624
00:19:15,590 --> 00:19:13,440
a fantastic step a very encouraging step

625
00:19:17,430 --> 00:19:15,600
where the uh psa suspended the society

626
00:19:18,870 --> 00:19:17,440
holy paths because they'd failed to

627
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,880
meet these conditions so they said

628
00:19:21,350 --> 00:19:20,400
you're no longer allowed to be

629
00:19:24,310 --> 00:19:21,360
accredited

630
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:24,320
but you have a year to get your house in

631
00:19:26,230 --> 00:19:25,840
order and then you can be allowed back

632
00:19:29,350 --> 00:19:26,240
in

633
00:19:30,070 --> 00:19:29,360
um but meanwhile the psa had a public

634
00:19:31,990 --> 00:19:30,080
consultation

635
00:19:33,110 --> 00:19:32,000
asking the public what they thought of

636
00:19:35,750 --> 00:19:33,120
this whole scheme at all

637
00:19:37,350 --> 00:19:35,760
you know does it make sense for um the

638
00:19:38,870 --> 00:19:37,360
there to be a voluntary register that

639
00:19:40,549 --> 00:19:38,880
allows homeopaths to have

640
00:19:42,549 --> 00:19:40,559
a government kite mark on it what do you

641
00:19:43,350 --> 00:19:42,559
think this this kite mark means what do

642
00:19:45,669 --> 00:19:43,360
the public

643
00:19:46,789 --> 00:19:45,679
think when they see this this psa logo

644
00:19:49,110 --> 00:19:46,799
on a website

645
00:19:50,230 --> 00:19:49,120
um and we we put a submission into that

646
00:19:52,390 --> 00:19:50,240
arguing that

647
00:19:53,750 --> 00:19:52,400
when you when you are a government body

648
00:19:55,750 --> 00:19:53,760
um who

649
00:19:57,830 --> 00:19:55,760
regulates respectable conventional

650
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:57,840
professions and then also these these uh

651
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,960
non-conventional uh

652
00:20:02,149 --> 00:20:00,559
professions people might think what

653
00:20:03,110 --> 00:20:02,159
you're doing is saying these things

654
00:20:05,590 --> 00:20:03,120
actually work

655
00:20:06,789 --> 00:20:05,600
um so we submitted to that consultation

656
00:20:07,510 --> 00:20:06,799
i know a lot of other people submit the

657
00:20:11,350 --> 00:20:07,520
consultation

658
00:20:13,990 --> 00:20:11,360
psa have come up with new standards that

659
00:20:14,950 --> 00:20:14,000
that all bodies they regulate have to

660
00:20:16,630 --> 00:20:14,960
abide by

661
00:20:18,549 --> 00:20:16,640
and one of those standards is a public

662
00:20:19,029 --> 00:20:18,559
interest test which says we're going to

663
00:20:21,029 --> 00:20:19,039
weigh up

664
00:20:22,549 --> 00:20:21,039
the risk of what you're doing against

665
00:20:24,630 --> 00:20:22,559
the benefit of what you're doing

666
00:20:26,549 --> 00:20:24,640
so in effect it's sort of an efficacy

667
00:20:28,149 --> 00:20:26,559
test which they've never done before in

668
00:20:30,149 --> 00:20:28,159
the in the past they've looked at

669
00:20:31,669 --> 00:20:30,159
are you governing correctly do you have

670
00:20:32,549 --> 00:20:31,679
good processes in place do you have

671
00:20:34,070 --> 00:20:32,559
safeguarding

672
00:20:35,510 --> 00:20:34,080
and good reporting of complaints and

673
00:20:36,789 --> 00:20:35,520
stuff like that but what they're saying

674
00:20:39,029 --> 00:20:36,799
is we're going to add in

675
00:20:41,270 --> 00:20:39,039
does your thing work or at least does it

676
00:20:43,270 --> 00:20:41,280
do the benefits if you outweigh the risk

677
00:20:44,549 --> 00:20:43,280
um and that i think is going to be ver

678
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:44,559
would would be very very

679
00:20:47,830 --> 00:20:45,760
very difficult for the society of

680
00:20:48,789 --> 00:20:47,840
homeopath to meet because they weren't

681
00:20:50,470 --> 00:20:48,799
able to meet

682
00:20:52,070 --> 00:20:50,480
the previous standards without getting

683
00:20:53,270 --> 00:20:52,080
so many conditions imposed upon them

684
00:20:55,430 --> 00:20:53,280
that they got suspended

685
00:20:57,510 --> 00:20:55,440
yeah now they have to also meet the

686
00:20:59,350 --> 00:20:57,520
standard of proving that homeopathy has

687
00:21:00,870 --> 00:20:59,360
a benefit that outweighs the risk

688
00:21:02,710 --> 00:21:00,880
and i would i would argue that would be

689
00:21:03,590 --> 00:21:02,720
an impossible standard to meet now we

690
00:21:04,789 --> 00:21:03,600
aren't going to know whether it's an

691
00:21:06,310 --> 00:21:04,799
impossible standard to meet or not

692
00:21:07,909 --> 00:21:06,320
because the society of homeopaths

693
00:21:09,990 --> 00:21:07,919
decided to withdraw from the scheme

694
00:21:10,710 --> 00:21:10,000
entirely rather than go against this new

695
00:21:12,470 --> 00:21:10,720
standard

696
00:21:13,909 --> 00:21:12,480
um they said it's because there's been

697
00:21:15,270 --> 00:21:13,919
changes to the fee structure

698
00:21:17,190 --> 00:21:15,280
so it's actually going to cost them more

699
00:21:17,750 --> 00:21:17,200
money to be involved and maybe that's

700
00:21:19,590 --> 00:21:17,760
true

701
00:21:20,870 --> 00:21:19,600
but i would argue all the money in the

702
00:21:22,149 --> 00:21:20,880
world would have made it very very

703
00:21:23,750 --> 00:21:22,159
difficult for them to

704
00:21:25,190 --> 00:21:23,760
meet this new public interest standard

705
00:21:27,270 --> 00:21:25,200
if they weren't even able to meet

706
00:21:28,549 --> 00:21:27,280
the previous standards without being hit

707
00:21:29,590 --> 00:21:28,559
by huge numbers of

708
00:21:31,190 --> 00:21:29,600
conditions that they were failing to

709
00:21:32,630 --> 00:21:31,200
meet and getting suspended over do you

710
00:21:35,110 --> 00:21:32,640
think that it's a matter of them

711
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:35,120
cutting their losses i i think it might

712
00:21:37,430 --> 00:21:36,480
well be i think it might well be i

713
00:21:40,070 --> 00:21:37,440
certainly think

714
00:21:40,789 --> 00:21:40,080
if they had to start imposing these new

715
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,799
standards

716
00:21:44,710 --> 00:21:42,720
so that essentially homopaths weren't

717
00:21:46,310 --> 00:21:44,720
allowed to claim to do anything

718
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:46,320
um i think that would've been very

719
00:21:48,549 --> 00:21:47,919
difficult for their registrants to

720
00:21:50,310 --> 00:21:48,559
continue

721
00:21:51,590 --> 00:21:50,320
seeing why they'd be part of the society

722
00:21:53,830 --> 00:21:51,600
homopath so i could imagine

723
00:21:55,110 --> 00:21:53,840
right maybe some homeopathy would leave

724
00:21:57,029 --> 00:21:55,120
the society because

725
00:21:58,549 --> 00:21:57,039
why am i paying dues to an organization

726
00:21:59,990 --> 00:21:58,559
that then restricts me so much i don't

727
00:22:01,909 --> 00:22:00,000
know that's just speculation

728
00:22:04,230 --> 00:22:01,919
um but i i think it would have been

729
00:22:06,310 --> 00:22:04,240
quite tricky um i also know that um

730
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:06,320
in the fee structure of the psa there's

731
00:22:10,710 --> 00:22:07,440
uh there's

732
00:22:12,070 --> 00:22:10,720
caveats and criteria around um extra

733
00:22:14,630 --> 00:22:12,080
fees that need to be imposed

734
00:22:16,390 --> 00:22:14,640
if you as an organization uh require

735
00:22:18,789 --> 00:22:16,400
much more special handling

736
00:22:20,789 --> 00:22:18,799
than another organization and what i

737
00:22:21,510 --> 00:22:20,799
know is the psa was in very long

738
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:21,520
conversations

739
00:22:24,549 --> 00:22:22,960
with the society homeopaths over the

740
00:22:25,990 --> 00:22:24,559
last couple of years and i i would

741
00:22:27,110 --> 00:22:26,000
imagine it took up quite a lot of the

742
00:22:29,590 --> 00:22:27,120
psa's time

743
00:22:30,630 --> 00:22:29,600
and i wonder whether they look to that

744
00:22:32,070 --> 00:22:30,640
caveat and

745
00:22:33,830 --> 00:22:32,080
thought if we continue to take up the

746
00:22:35,990 --> 00:22:33,840
psa's time the psa

747
00:22:37,350 --> 00:22:36,000
by law have a right to be able to charge

748
00:22:39,510 --> 00:22:37,360
for that time and that's going to get

749
00:22:41,190 --> 00:22:39,520
quite expensive so maybe maybe that also

750
00:22:42,470 --> 00:22:41,200
factored into it it's you know i can't

751
00:22:44,470 --> 00:22:42,480
uh i can't be certain

752
00:22:46,549 --> 00:22:44,480
um but i certainly would say it would be

753
00:22:48,789 --> 00:22:46,559
very difficult in my estimation for

754
00:22:50,310 --> 00:22:48,799
um the society of homeopaths or any

755
00:22:51,909 --> 00:22:50,320
organization that's that's promoting

756
00:22:54,070 --> 00:22:51,919
homeopathy specifically

757
00:22:55,350 --> 00:22:54,080
um to meet a risk benefit analysis when

758
00:22:56,870 --> 00:22:55,360
we know full well

759
00:22:58,549 --> 00:22:56,880
there is no benefit of homeopathy

760
00:23:00,149 --> 00:22:58,559
there's no uh evidence to prove there's

761
00:23:02,549 --> 00:23:00,159
a benefit so at that point

762
00:23:03,190 --> 00:23:02,559
any amount of risk even financial risk

763
00:23:05,029 --> 00:23:03,200
um

764
00:23:06,710 --> 00:23:05,039
is gonna outweigh the benefit i love

765
00:23:08,710 --> 00:23:06,720
this whole concept of

766
00:23:09,750 --> 00:23:08,720
a standard being set well let's see

767
00:23:11,909 --> 00:23:09,760
here's the standard

768
00:23:12,789 --> 00:23:11,919
does it work and we'll take it from

769
00:23:15,990 --> 00:23:12,799
there i love that

770
00:23:16,950 --> 00:23:16,000
that's great you think of your baseline

771
00:23:19,590 --> 00:23:16,960
but um that

772
00:23:22,070 --> 00:23:19,600
isn't the world we live in unfortunately

773
00:23:24,230 --> 00:23:22,080
now what do you think you know putting

774
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:24,240
on your nostradamus hat

775
00:23:27,510 --> 00:23:25,919
what do you think this means in the next

776
00:23:29,510 --> 00:23:27,520
couple of years for the homeopath

777
00:23:31,029 --> 00:23:29,520
for the homeopaths um i think they'll be

778
00:23:33,510 --> 00:23:31,039
outside of regulation now

779
00:23:34,549 --> 00:23:33,520
um so they'll be which will be a

780
00:23:37,110 --> 00:23:34,559
double-edged sword i think they'll have

781
00:23:38,470 --> 00:23:37,120
a lot less um credibility so what we

782
00:23:40,230 --> 00:23:38,480
have seen is a lot of

783
00:23:41,590 --> 00:23:40,240
a lot of the homeopaths um who are

784
00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:41,600
members are registered into the slightly

785
00:23:47,029 --> 00:23:43,919
homopaths and even the society itself

786
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:47,039
um wore the psa accreditation as a badge

787
00:23:49,830 --> 00:23:47,520
of honor

788
00:23:51,990 --> 00:23:49,840
right they would make it really clear in

789
00:23:53,190 --> 00:23:52,000
their in their websites that you can

790
00:23:55,029 --> 00:23:53,200
we know what we're doing because i'm

791
00:23:56,470 --> 00:23:55,039
part of an accredited regulator i'm part

792
00:23:57,510 --> 00:23:56,480
of an accredited register you know we

793
00:23:59,190 --> 00:23:57,520
are accredited

794
00:24:01,350 --> 00:23:59,200
and that was a big selling point for

795
00:24:03,269 --> 00:24:01,360
them they won't have that selling point

796
00:24:05,110 --> 00:24:03,279
um on the flip side they won't have the

797
00:24:06,549 --> 00:24:05,120
oversight um so that's something

798
00:24:07,750 --> 00:24:06,559
that we'll have to keep a close eye on

799
00:24:09,269 --> 00:24:07,760
on what's really going on there to

800
00:24:10,870 --> 00:24:09,279
understand what they're saying

801
00:24:12,789 --> 00:24:10,880
once there is a bit of a free-for-all

802
00:24:14,470 --> 00:24:12,799
there are obviously other regulators so

803
00:24:15,750 --> 00:24:14,480
advertising regulators and

804
00:24:17,430 --> 00:24:15,760
things like trading standards that

805
00:24:18,710 --> 00:24:17,440
they'll uh they'll be subject to so

806
00:24:20,310 --> 00:24:18,720
it'll be interesting to see where they

807
00:24:21,029 --> 00:24:20,320
go and it'll also be very interesting to

808
00:24:24,230 --> 00:24:21,039
see

809
00:24:25,990 --> 00:24:24,240
um how many homeopaths look at

810
00:24:27,750 --> 00:24:26,000
the membership of their registration

811
00:24:28,470 --> 00:24:27,760
fees with the society homeopath and

812
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:28,480
start to think

813
00:24:32,230 --> 00:24:30,880
what do i get for this now then um what

814
00:24:33,990 --> 00:24:32,240
is the benefit of being part of the

815
00:24:36,390 --> 00:24:34,000
society of homopaths

816
00:24:37,909 --> 00:24:36,400
maybe some will will decide that the the

817
00:24:38,630 --> 00:24:37,919
risks don't where don't outweigh the

818
00:24:40,070 --> 00:24:38,640
benefits yeah

819
00:24:41,110 --> 00:24:40,080
the other rather the risks outweigh the

820
00:24:41,909 --> 00:24:41,120
benefits of being part of the site

821
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:41,919
homeopaths

822
00:24:46,950 --> 00:24:45,039
um i think there's also a question about

823
00:24:48,470 --> 00:24:46,960
what this means more broadly and i think

824
00:24:51,430 --> 00:24:48,480
this might actually have

825
00:24:52,470 --> 00:24:51,440
um ripples and ramifications beyond just

826
00:24:54,470 --> 00:24:52,480
homeopathy

827
00:24:56,070 --> 00:24:54,480
because when it comes to this voluntary

828
00:24:57,190 --> 00:24:56,080
scheme that registers can be part of

829
00:24:58,950 --> 00:24:57,200
with the psa

830
00:25:00,470 --> 00:24:58,960
it's not just homeopaths who are from

831
00:25:01,590 --> 00:25:00,480
the alternative medicine world who are

832
00:25:03,350 --> 00:25:01,600
part of the scheme

833
00:25:04,789 --> 00:25:03,360
there's um there's the federation of

834
00:25:07,110 --> 00:25:04,799
holistic therapists

835
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:07,120
there's the british acupuncture council

836
00:25:11,430 --> 00:25:08,080
uh there's the

837
00:25:11,909 --> 00:25:11,440
uh i forget the the acronym but the cnhc

838
00:25:13,990 --> 00:25:11,919
is a

839
00:25:16,070 --> 00:25:14,000
a huge group amalgamating all manner of

840
00:25:18,310 --> 00:25:16,080
different uh alternative medicine

841
00:25:20,149 --> 00:25:18,320
practitioners from reiki practitioners

842
00:25:22,470 --> 00:25:20,159
to reflexologists and

843
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,480
herbalists and naturopaths and things um

844
00:25:26,230 --> 00:25:24,320
and this public interest

845
00:25:28,070 --> 00:25:26,240
position this public interest test is

846
00:25:29,590 --> 00:25:28,080
going to stand for those two

847
00:25:31,750 --> 00:25:29,600
and so we're going to be looking to

848
00:25:33,590 --> 00:25:31,760
those other voluntary registers to see

849
00:25:34,789 --> 00:25:33,600
what are their members saying and what

850
00:25:37,350 --> 00:25:34,799
um

851
00:25:38,549 --> 00:25:37,360
what uh what regulations does it look

852
00:25:40,149 --> 00:25:38,559
like they're breaking in terms of

853
00:25:41,190 --> 00:25:40,159
non-compliant claims things that they

854
00:25:43,110 --> 00:25:41,200
shouldn't be saying

855
00:25:45,669 --> 00:25:43,120
and what's being done by the register to

856
00:25:47,510 --> 00:25:45,679
uh to to police that because

857
00:25:49,350 --> 00:25:47,520
they're all gonna be subject to this new

858
00:25:50,950 --> 00:25:49,360
does the thing work or not test and it's

859
00:25:52,470 --> 00:25:50,960
gonna be harder and harder for um

860
00:25:54,789 --> 00:25:52,480
things that don't work to pass that yeah

861
00:25:56,710 --> 00:25:54,799
i just love the simplicity of that

862
00:25:59,110 --> 00:25:56,720
getting back to conspiracy theories

863
00:26:00,549 --> 00:25:59,120
marsh you know it occurs to me that the

864
00:26:02,789 --> 00:26:00,559
more and more that uh

865
00:26:03,590 --> 00:26:02,799
the homeopath see things not going their

866
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:03,600
way

867
00:26:07,590 --> 00:26:06,480
cracking down regulations things just

868
00:26:09,190 --> 00:26:07,600
don't agreeing with them

869
00:26:10,950 --> 00:26:09,200
the more and more they're probably

870
00:26:11,669 --> 00:26:10,960
thinking or a lot of them would probably

871
00:26:13,190 --> 00:26:11,679
think this is

872
00:26:15,269 --> 00:26:13,200
part of the conspiracy this is the

873
00:26:17,269 --> 00:26:15,279
government big pharma obviously putting

874
00:26:18,230 --> 00:26:17,279
the screws in trying to stop us because

875
00:26:20,149 --> 00:26:18,240
we know it works

876
00:26:21,590 --> 00:26:20,159
yeah i think that's i think that's quite

877
00:26:23,750 --> 00:26:21,600
possible i mean i've certainly seen

878
00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:23,760
homeopaths who are making a case like

879
00:26:25,750 --> 00:26:24,000
that

880
00:26:27,269 --> 00:26:25,760
who do think this is just a big

881
00:26:28,710 --> 00:26:27,279
conspiracy against them

882
00:26:30,070 --> 00:26:28,720
um and i understand why they think that

883
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:30,080
because they think they're right and

884
00:26:32,549 --> 00:26:31,360
they absolutely don't want to

885
00:26:35,190 --> 00:26:32,559
self-scrutinize

886
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:35,200
and ask themselves does are we doing the

887
00:26:37,190 --> 00:26:36,240
right thing a lot you know they've

888
00:26:38,549 --> 00:26:37,200
already got their

889
00:26:40,630 --> 00:26:38,559
their answer to that question and now

890
00:26:41,990 --> 00:26:40,640
they need to to backfill the world to

891
00:26:44,070 --> 00:26:42,000
prove that they're right

892
00:26:45,590 --> 00:26:44,080
um and it's always very very interesting

893
00:26:46,470 --> 00:26:45,600
when they look to good thinking and

894
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,480
consider us

895
00:26:50,710 --> 00:26:48,960
you know part of uh part of a

896
00:26:52,390 --> 00:26:50,720
coordinated conspiracy against them i

897
00:26:54,390 --> 00:26:52,400
mean good thinking society is

898
00:26:55,990 --> 00:26:54,400
me full-time and then simon is the chair

899
00:26:57,110 --> 00:26:56,000
who's working largely on our maths

900
00:26:58,070 --> 00:26:57,120
projects so he doesn't really get

901
00:27:00,310 --> 00:26:58,080
involved in these uh

902
00:27:02,070 --> 00:27:00,320
these these projects so it's basically

903
00:27:04,310 --> 00:27:02,080
me at the moment and um

904
00:27:05,590 --> 00:27:04,320
i'm not even just focused on homeopathy

905
00:27:07,350 --> 00:27:05,600
if you ask the chiropractors they'll

906
00:27:08,789 --> 00:27:07,360
think we're a special interest group

907
00:27:10,070 --> 00:27:08,799
aimed specifically at them and if you

908
00:27:11,269 --> 00:27:10,080
ask the osteopaths they'll think we're

909
00:27:12,070 --> 00:27:11,279
aimed specifically at them and the

910
00:27:13,350 --> 00:27:12,080
homeopaths think we're aiming

911
00:27:14,870 --> 00:27:13,360
specifically at them and

912
00:27:16,390 --> 00:27:14,880
and psychics out there think we only

913
00:27:17,990 --> 00:27:16,400
exist to bring them down so

914
00:27:21,029 --> 00:27:18,000
there's a there's a lot of people that

915
00:27:23,830 --> 00:27:21,039
it turns out i i exist solely to uh

916
00:27:25,590 --> 00:27:23,840
to bring down well we are glad you do

917
00:27:27,269 --> 00:27:25,600
exist marsh how can people

918
00:27:29,350 --> 00:27:27,279
how can people find out more where

919
00:27:31,909 --> 00:27:29,360
should they go to and how can they get

920
00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:31,919
access to this uh press release and

921
00:27:35,149 --> 00:27:33,200
future press releases

922
00:27:36,789 --> 00:27:35,159
yeah sure if you go to uh

923
00:27:38,870 --> 00:27:36,799
goodthinkingsociety.org you'll find

924
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:38,880
our our charity website there you can

925
00:27:42,230 --> 00:27:40,399
sign up for our newsletter

926
00:27:43,669 --> 00:27:42,240
uh which we'll send out periodically

927
00:27:44,870 --> 00:27:43,679
when we've got something to uh to tell

928
00:27:45,350 --> 00:27:44,880
you and you can follow us on twitter if

929
00:27:47,190 --> 00:27:45,360
you just look

930
00:27:49,430 --> 00:27:47,200
for good thinking it's good thinking

931
00:27:51,430 --> 00:27:49,440
sock on twitter uh you can find us there

932
00:27:53,430 --> 00:27:51,440
and you can find me on twitter at mr m

933
00:27:54,870 --> 00:27:53,440
marsh and i'll be talking about all the

934
00:27:56,870 --> 00:27:54,880
various things i'm doing with good

935
00:27:58,549 --> 00:27:56,880
thinking with the skeptic magazine with

936
00:27:59,990 --> 00:27:58,559
merseyside skeptics and all the various

937
00:28:01,590 --> 00:28:00,000
of the ways that i spend my time

938
00:28:03,990 --> 00:28:01,600
excellent folks i will link to that

939
00:28:05,510 --> 00:28:04,000
website in this week's show notes well

940
00:28:06,870 --> 00:28:05,520
marsh what a pleasure it is to catch up

941
00:28:09,190 --> 00:28:06,880
with you once again

942
00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:09,200
i know you were supposed to be here i

943
00:28:14,549 --> 00:28:11,120
think it was last year

944
00:28:16,950 --> 00:28:14,559
um for the convention and we had to

945
00:28:17,590 --> 00:28:16,960
put that online because a curve at 19.

946
00:28:20,789 --> 00:28:17,600
and

947
00:28:23,110 --> 00:28:20,799
but then um last year we were thinking

948
00:28:24,549 --> 00:28:23,120
oh well at least in 2021 things will

949
00:28:27,190 --> 00:28:24,559
improve

950
00:28:29,110 --> 00:28:27,200
um and now we're planning for another

951
00:28:29,590 --> 00:28:29,120
probably another online convention to

952
00:28:31,830 --> 00:28:29,600
some

953
00:28:33,350 --> 00:28:31,840
degree or another but don't worry we'll

954
00:28:35,190 --> 00:28:33,360
muddle through but for now

955
00:28:36,549 --> 00:28:35,200
for now michael marshall all the way

956
00:28:38,230 --> 00:28:36,559
over there in liverpool

957
00:28:40,220 --> 00:28:38,240
thank you very much thanks so much

958
00:28:42,830 --> 00:28:40,230
always a pleasure to speak with you

959
00:28:44,180 --> 00:28:42,840
[Music]

960
00:28:52,980 --> 00:28:44,190
richard

961
00:28:54,300 --> 00:28:52,990
[Music]

962
00:28:55,590 --> 00:28:54,310
[Applause]

963
00:28:57,110 --> 00:28:55,600
[Music]

964
00:29:00,110 --> 00:28:57,120
now here's a note from our friends at

965
00:29:02,230 --> 00:29:00,120
canberra skeptics at

966
00:29:04,710 --> 00:29:02,240
canberraskeptics.org

967
00:29:05,590 --> 00:29:04,720
canberra skeptics proudly presents fake

968
00:29:07,830 --> 00:29:05,600
medicine

969
00:29:08,789 --> 00:29:07,840
exposing the wellness crazes cons and

970
00:29:11,669 --> 00:29:08,799
quacks

971
00:29:12,149 --> 00:29:11,679
costing us our health now this will be a

972
00:29:15,190 --> 00:29:12,159
zoom

973
00:29:18,630 --> 00:29:15,200
talk on monday the 16th of august

974
00:29:20,870 --> 00:29:18,640
the time will be 6 p.m to 7 00 p.m

975
00:29:23,029 --> 00:29:20,880
the guest speaker none other than dr

976
00:29:26,630 --> 00:29:23,039
brad makai

977
00:29:28,710 --> 00:29:26,640
dr brad mckay gp an experienced

978
00:29:31,830 --> 00:29:28,720
science communicator investigates the

979
00:29:34,549 --> 00:29:31,840
myths scams and fads of modern health

980
00:29:35,830 --> 00:29:34,559
and well-being we all want to be

981
00:29:38,789 --> 00:29:35,840
healthier happier and

982
00:29:41,269 --> 00:29:38,799
live longer lives but too many of us are

983
00:29:41,909 --> 00:29:41,279
charmed by charlatans misled by

984
00:29:44,950 --> 00:29:41,919
marketing

985
00:29:48,149 --> 00:29:44,960
or scammed by sciency-sounding

986
00:29:48,549 --> 00:29:48,159
salespeople now dr brad of course wrote

987
00:29:51,190 --> 00:29:48,559
the book

988
00:29:53,029 --> 00:29:51,200
fake medicine and we interviewed him a

989
00:29:53,830 --> 00:29:53,039
couple of months back on the skeptic

990
00:29:57,269 --> 00:29:53,840
zone

991
00:29:58,950 --> 00:29:57,279
this promises to be a fascinating talk

992
00:30:00,549 --> 00:29:58,960
fake medicine explores the potential

993
00:30:03,029 --> 00:30:00,559
dangers of wellness warriors

994
00:30:04,630 --> 00:30:03,039
anti-vaxxers fad diets dodgy supplements

995
00:30:08,789 --> 00:30:04,640
alternative practices

996
00:30:10,630 --> 00:30:08,799
and conspiracy theories so why not

997
00:30:14,389 --> 00:30:10,640
tune in for that talk for more

998
00:30:16,630 --> 00:30:14,399
information head to canberrasseptics.org

999
00:30:17,510 --> 00:30:16,640
or check out canberra skeptics on

1000
00:30:20,070 --> 00:30:17,520
facebook

1001
00:30:21,110 --> 00:30:20,080
just look for canberra skeptics or even

1002
00:30:23,269 --> 00:30:21,120
on meetup

1003
00:30:24,310 --> 00:30:23,279
and there you would look for social

1004
00:30:27,510 --> 00:30:24,320
skeptics

1005
00:30:28,789 --> 00:30:27,520
canberra so that's dr brad mackay

1006
00:30:36,220 --> 00:30:28,799
speaking on monday

1007
00:30:44,870 --> 00:30:36,230
the 16th of august

1008
00:30:48,710 --> 00:30:46,789
the weeks and weeks drag on here in

1009
00:30:51,350 --> 00:30:48,720
sydney with lockdown

1010
00:30:52,630 --> 00:30:51,360
with the covered cases the delta strain

1011
00:30:54,470 --> 00:30:52,640
variation

1012
00:30:56,950 --> 00:30:54,480
variant whatever you'd like to call it

1013
00:30:59,509 --> 00:30:56,960
surging in the city

1014
00:31:01,669 --> 00:30:59,519
as our record we are waiting for today's

1015
00:31:03,990 --> 00:31:01,679
new covert numbers yesterday

1016
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:04,000
being thursday as i record the numbers

1017
00:31:10,230 --> 00:31:07,840
were 262 new cases

1018
00:31:11,830 --> 00:31:10,240
and five people have died in that

1019
00:31:13,830 --> 00:31:11,840
reporting period

1020
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:13,840
by the time this podcast comes out the

1021
00:31:21,110 --> 00:31:18,080
numbers may well be worse i don't know

1022
00:31:23,190 --> 00:31:21,120
but last night melbourne

1023
00:31:25,669 --> 00:31:23,200
and i think in fact the state of

1024
00:31:26,950 --> 00:31:25,679
victoria went into a seven day snap

1025
00:31:29,350 --> 00:31:26,960
lockdown

1026
00:31:30,389 --> 00:31:29,360
with more cases of the delta variation

1027
00:31:32,630 --> 00:31:30,399
being reported

1028
00:31:33,509 --> 00:31:32,640
in that part of the world and this

1029
00:31:36,710 --> 00:31:33,519
resulted in

1030
00:31:39,269 --> 00:31:36,720
very quickly more protests

1031
00:31:41,350 --> 00:31:39,279
and we scan a new story coming across

1032
00:31:44,789 --> 00:31:41,360
from news.com today you

1033
00:31:45,750 --> 00:31:44,799
by elaine ransley in pictures chaos

1034
00:31:48,950 --> 00:31:45,760
descends

1035
00:31:52,710 --> 00:31:48,960
on melbourne central business district

1036
00:31:55,190 --> 00:31:52,720
as anti-lockdown protest erupts

1037
00:31:56,789 --> 00:31:55,200
police will seek to identify the

1038
00:31:58,470 --> 00:31:56,799
hundreds of people

1039
00:32:00,230 --> 00:31:58,480
who took to the streets as the state

1040
00:32:03,430 --> 00:32:00,240
entered its sixth lockdown

1041
00:32:04,950 --> 00:32:03,440
with dozens already arrested now

1042
00:32:07,029 --> 00:32:04,960
one can have some sympathy for the

1043
00:32:11,269 --> 00:32:07,039
people in melbourne i mean they've

1044
00:32:14,149 --> 00:32:11,279
had many lockdowns and

1045
00:32:16,549 --> 00:32:14,159
it's a tough call you know no they

1046
00:32:18,230 --> 00:32:16,559
shouldn't be marching it's just

1047
00:32:19,830 --> 00:32:18,240
terrible it's a terrible decision on

1048
00:32:21,909 --> 00:32:19,840
their part but

1049
00:32:24,630 --> 00:32:21,919
we must feel for the frustration and the

1050
00:32:27,830 --> 00:32:24,640
anger and people losing their income

1051
00:32:30,789 --> 00:32:27,840
and so on it's not an easy situation

1052
00:32:33,350 --> 00:32:30,799
police will scour cctv footage to

1053
00:32:35,350 --> 00:32:33,360
identify the hundreds of protesters

1054
00:32:37,430 --> 00:32:35,360
who descended on melbourne's central

1055
00:32:39,750 --> 00:32:37,440
business district on thursday night

1056
00:32:41,669 --> 00:32:39,760
as victoria was plunged into its sixth

1057
00:32:44,470 --> 00:32:41,679
covert 19 lockdown

1058
00:32:45,430 --> 00:32:44,480
the group most of whom were not wearing

1059
00:32:47,909 --> 00:32:45,440
masks

1060
00:32:48,870 --> 00:32:47,919
met at flinders street at 7 pm on

1061
00:32:52,310 --> 00:32:48,880
thursday before

1062
00:32:54,310 --> 00:32:52,320
marching to swanson street and circling

1063
00:32:56,470 --> 00:32:54,320
the central business district

1064
00:33:00,070 --> 00:32:56,480
photographs show people being arrested

1065
00:33:02,310 --> 00:33:00,080
flares being lit downtown

1066
00:33:03,750 --> 00:33:02,320
and police confronting protesters with

1067
00:33:06,310 --> 00:33:03,760
looks like uh

1068
00:33:06,789 --> 00:33:06,320
pepper spray or something like that the

1069
00:33:09,430 --> 00:33:06,799
crowd

1070
00:33:10,630 --> 00:33:09,440
chanted no more lockdowns and sac dan

1071
00:33:13,909 --> 00:33:10,640
andrews

1072
00:33:15,190 --> 00:33:13,919
the leader of government in the state of

1073
00:33:18,389 --> 00:33:15,200
victoria

1074
00:33:20,230 --> 00:33:18,399
as at least two flares were lit at least

1075
00:33:21,430 --> 00:33:20,240
15 people have been arrested and 16

1076
00:33:23,830 --> 00:33:21,440
others were fined

1077
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:23,840
at least four of whom were known to

1078
00:33:29,750 --> 00:33:26,640
police as protest organizers

1079
00:33:32,789 --> 00:33:29,760
the photographs accompanying this uh

1080
00:33:35,669 --> 00:33:32,799
page are quite dramatic with hundreds

1081
00:33:38,149 --> 00:33:35,679
it would seem hundreds of people

1082
00:33:39,830 --> 00:33:38,159
protesting in melbourne

1083
00:33:41,830 --> 00:33:39,840
we have various other pictures here of

1084
00:33:44,310 --> 00:33:41,840
people holding up signs

1085
00:33:45,990 --> 00:33:44,320
imagine still believing any of this

1086
00:33:49,669 --> 00:33:46,000
about a virus

1087
00:33:51,590 --> 00:33:49,679
one young lady is holding up that sign

1088
00:33:53,509 --> 00:33:51,600
another young lady is holding up another

1089
00:33:57,190 --> 00:33:53,519
sign mass civil disobedience

1090
00:34:00,710 --> 00:33:57,200
ends this it was never about your health

1091
00:34:02,070 --> 00:34:00,720
wise up and these people who insist that

1092
00:34:03,909 --> 00:34:02,080
we are the sheeple

1093
00:34:06,389 --> 00:34:03,919
and they have really discovered the

1094
00:34:07,509 --> 00:34:06,399
truth now there's more to read at that

1095
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:07,519
page

1096
00:34:13,109 --> 00:34:10,240
but it ends saying premier daniel

1097
00:34:14,790 --> 00:34:13,119
andrews said that he had no other choice

1098
00:34:16,869 --> 00:34:14,800
but to put the entire state into

1099
00:34:17,669 --> 00:34:16,879
lockdown before 8 pm on thursday for 7

1100
00:34:19,510 --> 00:34:17,679
days

1101
00:34:21,829 --> 00:34:19,520
residents are now only able to leave

1102
00:34:23,109 --> 00:34:21,839
their home for five reasons to shop for

1103
00:34:25,109 --> 00:34:23,119
essentials

1104
00:34:26,710 --> 00:34:25,119
for authorized work or permitted

1105
00:34:29,030 --> 00:34:26,720
education to provide

1106
00:34:31,109 --> 00:34:29,040
care and for medical and compassionate

1107
00:34:34,710 --> 00:34:31,119
reasons to get vaccinated

1108
00:34:36,149 --> 00:34:34,720
or tested and to exercise for a maximum

1109
00:34:37,990 --> 00:34:36,159
of two hours

1110
00:34:39,990 --> 00:34:38,000
now i'll link to this story so you can

1111
00:34:43,909 --> 00:34:40,000
read that for yourself

1112
00:34:46,710 --> 00:34:43,919
and one of the other unfortunate sad

1113
00:34:48,869 --> 00:34:46,720
consequences of this whole covet saga is

1114
00:34:50,310 --> 00:34:48,879
discovering that uh people you've known

1115
00:34:53,669 --> 00:34:50,320
over the years

1116
00:34:55,430 --> 00:34:53,679
uh popping up on social media and

1117
00:34:58,150 --> 00:34:55,440
basically exposing themselves as

1118
00:35:00,790 --> 00:34:58,160
anti-vaxxers and conspiracy theorists

1119
00:35:02,550 --> 00:35:00,800
it's not that's not fun to see that and

1120
00:35:03,910 --> 00:35:02,560
especially when they try to convince you

1121
00:35:05,670 --> 00:35:03,920
of their

1122
00:35:08,069 --> 00:35:05,680
uh their discoveries they've done their

1123
00:35:11,109 --> 00:35:08,079
own research and they've seen a video

1124
00:35:11,670 --> 00:35:11,119
and and so on it can lead to some very

1125
00:35:20,150 --> 00:35:11,680
uh

1126
00:35:21,430 --> 00:35:20,160
andrews and victoria is acting on the

1127
00:35:24,470 --> 00:35:21,440
best possible

1128
00:35:25,430 --> 00:35:24,480
medical advice and i'm sure he is very

1129
00:35:30,870 --> 00:35:25,440
keen

1130
00:35:33,750 --> 00:35:30,880
happening here in sydney

1131
00:35:35,030 --> 00:35:33,760
where despite lockdowns for well over a

1132
00:35:38,150 --> 00:35:35,040
month

1133
00:35:38,950 --> 00:35:38,160
the uh infection rate continues to

1134
00:35:41,349 --> 00:35:38,960
increase

1135
00:35:42,829 --> 00:35:41,359
as i've said before delta is a different

1136
00:35:44,160 --> 00:35:42,839
game

1137
00:36:00,870 --> 00:35:44,170
altogether

1138
00:36:04,790 --> 00:36:02,790
now here's a note from my old friend

1139
00:36:06,069 --> 00:36:04,800
margaret downey who i have interviewed a

1140
00:36:10,470 --> 00:36:06,079
few times

1141
00:36:13,349 --> 00:36:10,480
the latest was at dragon con in atlanta

1142
00:36:17,390 --> 00:36:13,359
georgia in 2019 before

1143
00:36:20,550 --> 00:36:18,550
[Music]

1144
00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:20,560
margaret tells me that on saturday the

1145
00:36:26,470 --> 00:36:22,079
14th of august

1146
00:36:28,390 --> 00:36:26,480
the 2021 frigger trista decophobia

1147
00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:28,400
i hope i've said that correctly

1148
00:36:33,109 --> 00:36:30,560
treatment center opening

1149
00:36:34,470 --> 00:36:33,119
and then it says august 13th so it'll be

1150
00:36:39,670 --> 00:36:34,480
13th or 14th

1151
00:36:42,150 --> 00:36:39,680
uh it's probably a time zone thing

1152
00:36:43,589 --> 00:36:42,160
and i will link to this page in the show

1153
00:36:46,870 --> 00:36:43,599
notes if you want to

1154
00:36:49,829 --> 00:36:46,880
join in or find out more but it says

1155
00:36:52,270 --> 00:36:49,839
nowhere in the entire world has there

1156
00:36:53,430 --> 00:36:52,280
been a friday the 13th online

1157
00:36:57,670 --> 00:36:53,440
anti-superstation

1158
00:37:00,710 --> 00:36:57,680
bash until now please join us

1159
00:37:03,750 --> 00:37:00,720
now ah of course 13 14

1160
00:37:06,630 --> 00:37:03,760
13 yes that makes sense please join the

1161
00:37:08,150 --> 00:37:06,640
free thought society and the center for

1162
00:37:10,950 --> 00:37:08,160
inquiry cfi

1163
00:37:11,670 --> 00:37:10,960
as we cure people of their superstitions

1164
00:37:15,190 --> 00:37:11,680
during the

1165
00:37:16,630 --> 00:37:15,200
virtual opening of the famous frigate

1166
00:37:19,910 --> 00:37:16,640
trista decaphobia

1167
00:37:23,870 --> 00:37:19,920
treatment center on friday august 13

1168
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:23,880
2021 at 3 45 pm

1169
00:37:30,790 --> 00:37:27,200
pdt 6 45

1170
00:37:32,710 --> 00:37:30,800
pm edd it goes on to say frigate trista

1171
00:37:36,710 --> 00:37:32,720
dicaphobia doctors and nurses will

1172
00:37:40,150 --> 00:37:38,310
that will involve humorous and

1173
00:37:43,589 --> 00:37:40,160
fun-loving interactions

1174
00:37:44,950 --> 00:37:43,599
as awarded to participants who

1175
00:37:47,510 --> 00:37:44,960
participate and

1176
00:37:50,710 --> 00:37:47,520
follow the doctor's orders this looks

1177
00:37:53,190 --> 00:37:50,720
like a lot of fun folks and

1178
00:37:56,390 --> 00:37:53,200
it's obviously these days it's an online

1179
00:37:59,829 --> 00:37:56,400
event it's a zoom event you can zoom in

1180
00:38:01,990 --> 00:37:59,839
and i will link to this in this week's

1181
00:38:03,750 --> 00:38:02,000
show notes if you'd like to join in

1182
00:38:06,790 --> 00:38:03,760
friday the 13th now i don't know about

1183
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:06,800
you i don't know about you

1184
00:38:10,630 --> 00:38:08,400
i don't know about your part of the

1185
00:38:12,310 --> 00:38:10,640
world but here in australia

1186
00:38:14,069 --> 00:38:12,320
i've noticed over the last couple of

1187
00:38:17,109 --> 00:38:14,079
decades that

1188
00:38:18,550 --> 00:38:17,119
the the whole friday the 13th thing is

1189
00:38:20,550 --> 00:38:18,560
really

1190
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:20,560
sort of subsided into public

1191
00:38:24,310 --> 00:38:22,160
consciousness i think

1192
00:38:26,470 --> 00:38:24,320
it's noted when it comes around and

1193
00:38:28,630 --> 00:38:26,480
people tend to buy more lottery tickets

1194
00:38:30,630 --> 00:38:28,640
and there's a few funny characters and

1195
00:38:34,550 --> 00:38:30,640
black cats put about

1196
00:38:36,790 --> 00:38:34,560
but as it being a bad luck day or

1197
00:38:39,829 --> 00:38:36,800
something like that i think that's

1198
00:38:41,910 --> 00:38:39,839
in here in australia at least i think

1199
00:38:42,870 --> 00:38:41,920
that superstition has faded now into

1200
00:38:45,910 --> 00:38:42,880
just

1201
00:38:47,670 --> 00:38:45,920
comic value which is a good fate for all

1202
00:38:50,470 --> 00:38:47,680
superstitions i think

1203
00:38:51,829 --> 00:38:50,480
anyway why not check this out again i

1204
00:39:02,310 --> 00:38:51,839
will link to this event

1205
00:39:15,829 --> 00:39:13,109
[Music]

1206
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:15,839
oh trove you are the gift that just

1207
00:39:19,349 --> 00:39:17,680
keeps on giving

1208
00:39:21,109 --> 00:39:19,359
we've discovered so many interesting

1209
00:39:22,230 --> 00:39:21,119
things in the trove archives over the

1210
00:39:24,550 --> 00:39:22,240
last

1211
00:39:26,870 --> 00:39:24,560
well many months all sorts of things

1212
00:39:29,510 --> 00:39:26,880
about the paranormal and psychics and

1213
00:39:31,190 --> 00:39:29,520
related subjects trove of course being

1214
00:39:33,190 --> 00:39:31,200
the online resource of digitized

1215
00:39:34,870 --> 00:39:33,200
newspapers and articles and

1216
00:39:37,109 --> 00:39:34,880
magazines and so on from the australian

1217
00:39:38,589 --> 00:39:37,119
government and the national library of

1218
00:39:41,830 --> 00:39:38,599
australia

1219
00:39:45,349 --> 00:39:41,840
trove.nla.gov dot a u

1220
00:39:47,349 --> 00:39:45,359
[Music]

1221
00:39:48,710 --> 00:39:47,359
and this week i thought we would look

1222
00:39:52,470 --> 00:39:48,720
into

1223
00:39:53,990 --> 00:39:52,480
witchcraft now i've met a few people

1224
00:39:56,790 --> 00:39:54,000
along

1225
00:39:58,150 --> 00:39:56,800
in my journeys who described themselves

1226
00:39:59,990 --> 00:39:58,160
as witches

1227
00:40:01,829 --> 00:40:00,000
i never really got to the bottom of what

1228
00:40:05,349 --> 00:40:01,839
that actually means what they think they

1229
00:40:07,589 --> 00:40:05,359
do or what they claim to be able to do

1230
00:40:08,630 --> 00:40:07,599
i got into trouble once in suggesting

1231
00:40:11,430 --> 00:40:08,640
that witches cast

1232
00:40:13,589 --> 00:40:11,440
spells and was rebuked apparently they

1233
00:40:15,670 --> 00:40:13,599
don't they just talk to people

1234
00:40:16,840 --> 00:40:15,680
but i'm sure other people would disagree

1235
00:40:18,470 --> 00:40:16,850
it's a bit complicated

1236
00:40:21,109 --> 00:40:18,480
[Music]

1237
00:40:22,870 --> 00:40:21,119
nevertheless let's pour through the

1238
00:40:25,670 --> 00:40:22,880
archives and see what

1239
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:25,680
witches and witchcraft can deliver us

1240
00:40:32,230 --> 00:40:27,010
this week

1241
00:40:36,790 --> 00:40:34,150
and like spinning the dial or rolling

1242
00:40:39,990 --> 00:40:36,800
the dice and landing on a certain year

1243
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:40,000
we land in the year 1925 on the

1244
00:40:44,150 --> 00:40:42,880
6th of february in the daily telegraph

1245
00:40:46,230 --> 00:40:44,160
which was a paper

1246
00:40:47,589 --> 00:40:46,240
maybe still is i'm not sure paper in

1247
00:40:52,790 --> 00:40:47,599
launceston

1248
00:40:55,829 --> 00:40:52,800
tasmania witchcraft

1249
00:40:58,470 --> 00:40:55,839
in england in december last was reported

1250
00:40:59,829 --> 00:40:58,480
a rare and curious case of a man whose

1251
00:41:03,750 --> 00:40:59,839
belief in witchcraft

1252
00:41:07,109 --> 00:41:03,760
led to his appearance in a police court

1253
00:41:09,910 --> 00:41:07,119
the man in question a devin smallholder

1254
00:41:10,790 --> 00:41:09,920
was summoned for assaulting a neighbor a

1255
00:41:13,430 --> 00:41:10,800
woman

1256
00:41:14,710 --> 00:41:13,440
under the belief that she had quote

1257
00:41:19,030 --> 00:41:14,720
ill-wished

1258
00:41:22,309 --> 00:41:19,040
and quote him and bewitched

1259
00:41:24,309 --> 00:41:22,319
his pig the magistrates did their best

1260
00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:24,319
to convince the defendant

1261
00:41:27,910 --> 00:41:26,880
that there was no such thing as

1262
00:41:31,430 --> 00:41:27,920
witchcraft

1263
00:41:33,750 --> 00:41:31,440
but as might be expected comments the

1264
00:41:34,950 --> 00:41:33,760
london morning post they were

1265
00:41:36,710 --> 00:41:34,960
unsuccessful

1266
00:41:37,990 --> 00:41:36,720
he was sentenced to one month's

1267
00:41:39,990 --> 00:41:38,000
imprisonment

1268
00:41:42,150 --> 00:41:40,000
and for all we know he may be as

1269
00:41:44,390 --> 00:41:42,160
convinced a believer in witchcraft

1270
00:41:45,510 --> 00:41:44,400
when he comes out of prison as he was

1271
00:41:49,190 --> 00:41:45,520
when he went

1272
00:41:52,950 --> 00:41:49,200
in the case is surprising because we are

1273
00:41:54,790 --> 00:41:52,960
all more or less the slaves of words

1274
00:41:56,390 --> 00:41:54,800
and the small holder who believes in

1275
00:41:59,670 --> 00:41:56,400
witchcraft and its effect

1276
00:42:01,349 --> 00:41:59,680
on himself and his pigs strikes our

1277
00:42:04,950 --> 00:42:01,359
enlightened intelligence

1278
00:42:06,550 --> 00:42:04,960
as something archaic a strange survival

1279
00:42:08,870 --> 00:42:06,560
of effect prejudices

1280
00:42:10,230 --> 00:42:08,880
a return to the uncouth superstitions

1281
00:42:12,589 --> 00:42:10,240
and practices

1282
00:42:16,790 --> 00:42:12,599
which disfigured for many centuries the

1283
00:42:20,390 --> 00:42:16,800
ecclesiastical and social life in europe

1284
00:42:22,630 --> 00:42:20,400
belief in which is obsolete most

1285
00:42:25,829 --> 00:42:22,640
certainly the devin smallholder was a

1286
00:42:28,550 --> 00:42:25,839
very prejudiced and stupid person

1287
00:42:29,670 --> 00:42:28,560
but it in the course of his attentions

1288
00:42:32,550 --> 00:42:29,680
to the pigs

1289
00:42:33,990 --> 00:42:32,560
he had been able to devote any time to

1290
00:42:36,150 --> 00:42:34,000
the study of history

1291
00:42:37,109 --> 00:42:36,160
he might have been able to say to the

1292
00:42:41,270 --> 00:42:37,119
magistrates

1293
00:42:44,309 --> 00:42:41,280
who so unprofitably argued with him

1294
00:42:46,630 --> 00:42:44,319
my worshipful masters you accuse me of a

1295
00:42:48,870 --> 00:42:46,640
belief in witchcraft and punish me for

1296
00:42:51,750 --> 00:42:48,880
protecting myself against this woman

1297
00:42:53,750 --> 00:42:51,760
who has exercised so malignant and

1298
00:42:56,950 --> 00:42:53,760
influence over myself and my

1299
00:42:59,750 --> 00:42:56,960
pig i may be right or wrong

1300
00:43:00,150 --> 00:42:59,760
in fact but i am being punished because

1301
00:43:03,349 --> 00:43:00,160
i

1302
00:43:07,270 --> 00:43:03,359
20th

1303
00:43:10,630 --> 00:43:07,280
and not in the 16th or in the 17th

1304
00:43:13,109 --> 00:43:10,640
or even the 18th centuries if i had been

1305
00:43:16,790 --> 00:43:13,119
living in those enlightened times

1306
00:43:18,309 --> 00:43:16,800
i and my pig would have found a

1307
00:43:21,109 --> 00:43:18,319
sympathetic hearing

1308
00:43:22,870 --> 00:43:21,119
not only before magistrates but also

1309
00:43:25,589 --> 00:43:22,880
before princes of the church

1310
00:43:26,150 --> 00:43:25,599
learned doctors poets dramatists and

1311
00:43:29,910 --> 00:43:26,160
even

1312
00:43:30,150 --> 00:43:29,920
kings i am punished because i belong to

1313
00:43:37,910 --> 00:43:30,160
an

1314
00:43:41,030 --> 00:43:37,920
but credulity still flourishes

1315
00:43:41,750 --> 00:43:41,040
is there not something in this point of

1316
00:43:45,030 --> 00:43:41,760
view

1317
00:43:47,190 --> 00:43:45,040
witchcraft is dead old women now are no

1318
00:43:49,510 --> 00:43:47,200
longer burnt at the stake

1319
00:43:50,950 --> 00:43:49,520
the inquisition no longer counts as

1320
00:43:53,670 --> 00:43:50,960
torture

1321
00:43:55,750 --> 00:43:53,680
and a man can still be a good protestant

1322
00:43:56,630 --> 00:43:55,760
without believing in those malignant

1323
00:43:58,870 --> 00:43:56,640
forces which

1324
00:44:00,390 --> 00:43:58,880
protruded both england and scotland long

1325
00:44:02,870 --> 00:44:00,400
after the reformation

1326
00:44:05,190 --> 00:44:02,880
but the mental point of view which made

1327
00:44:07,190 --> 00:44:05,200
the ignominies of torture associated

1328
00:44:10,630 --> 00:44:07,200
with witchcraft once so popular

1329
00:44:12,309 --> 00:44:10,640
still persist to our day men and women

1330
00:44:15,910 --> 00:44:12,319
are still credulous

1331
00:44:18,790 --> 00:44:15,920
foolish timorous and cruel

1332
00:44:19,430 --> 00:44:18,800
they are still the slaves of catchwords

1333
00:44:21,910 --> 00:44:19,440
and are

1334
00:44:23,910 --> 00:44:21,920
daily being taken in by all kinds of

1335
00:44:26,390 --> 00:44:23,920
shams and fears

1336
00:44:27,589 --> 00:44:26,400
except in the remote places in devon the

1337
00:44:31,030 --> 00:44:27,599
witches have

1338
00:44:33,190 --> 00:44:31,040
disappeared but credulity

1339
00:44:35,349 --> 00:44:33,200
still flourishes and thousands of

1340
00:44:39,030 --> 00:44:35,359
so-called christian men and women

1341
00:44:42,470 --> 00:44:39,040
pay but scant attention to the superb

1342
00:44:44,710 --> 00:44:42,480
christian warning watch and pray

1343
00:44:46,630 --> 00:44:44,720
in condemning the devin smallholder let

1344
00:44:50,309 --> 00:44:46,640
us be sure that we also

1345
00:44:51,430 --> 00:44:50,319
are not without sin we may no longer

1346
00:44:54,309 --> 00:44:51,440
hunt witches

1347
00:44:57,589 --> 00:44:54,319
in the flesh but we still allow our

1348
00:45:00,150 --> 00:44:57,599
minds to be enslaved by witchcraft

1349
00:45:00,630 --> 00:45:00,160
two centuries hence devon magistrates

1350
00:45:03,750 --> 00:45:00,640
may

1351
00:45:06,870 --> 00:45:03,760
have before them some simple soul

1352
00:45:10,230 --> 00:45:06,880
whose defense which would be popularly

1353
00:45:12,069 --> 00:45:10,240
acclaimed today as an expression of the

1354
00:45:14,630 --> 00:45:12,079
latest scientific thought

1355
00:45:15,510 --> 00:45:14,640
will be accepted as the ravings of a

1356
00:45:18,790 --> 00:45:15,520
lunatic

1357
00:45:19,829 --> 00:45:18,800
for whom perpetual incarceration will be

1358
00:45:23,030 --> 00:45:19,839
decreed

1359
00:45:26,710 --> 00:45:23,040
to be the fitting punishment

1360
00:45:28,870 --> 00:45:26,720
what a strange story that was a man and

1361
00:45:34,870 --> 00:45:28,880
his pig

1362
00:45:36,790 --> 00:45:34,880
hmm from when was that from 1925

1363
00:45:38,150 --> 00:45:36,800
now here's one of the strangest ones

1364
00:45:41,510 --> 00:45:38,160
i've discovered

1365
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:41,520
and this is from the world's news

1366
00:45:48,470 --> 00:45:46,079
published on the 15th of april 1944.

1367
00:45:50,230 --> 00:45:48,480
needless to say during the second world

1368
00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:50,240
war

1369
00:45:56,630 --> 00:45:53,599
and accompanying this uh article

1370
00:45:57,829 --> 00:45:56,640
some very strange cartoon drawings of

1371
00:45:59,750 --> 00:45:57,839
adolf hitler

1372
00:46:01,589 --> 00:45:59,760
being tied at the stake surrounded by

1373
00:46:03,670 --> 00:46:01,599
hooded figures

1374
00:46:04,710 --> 00:46:03,680
and adafitla opening a present which

1375
00:46:07,750 --> 00:46:04,720
turns out to be

1376
00:46:10,550 --> 00:46:07,760
a voodoo doll of himself with pins in it

1377
00:46:11,750 --> 00:46:10,560
and he's looking rather perplexed

1378
00:46:15,349 --> 00:46:11,760
they've declared a

1379
00:46:16,390 --> 00:46:15,359
quote psychic war end quote on nazi

1380
00:46:18,550 --> 00:46:16,400
leaders

1381
00:46:19,750 --> 00:46:18,560
many quaint ideas for winning the war

1382
00:46:23,030 --> 00:46:19,760
have been put forward by

1383
00:46:24,390 --> 00:46:23,040
cranks of all nations but few can be

1384
00:46:27,670 --> 00:46:24,400
more fantastic

1385
00:46:30,630 --> 00:46:27,680
than the quote psychic blitz

1386
00:46:33,030 --> 00:46:30,640
and quote described in this article by

1387
00:46:36,069 --> 00:46:33,040
the noted student of occultism

1388
00:46:36,470 --> 00:46:36,079
and the author of quote witchcraft end

1389
00:46:38,550 --> 00:46:36,480
quote

1390
00:46:40,230 --> 00:46:38,560
and this would appear to be a story by

1391
00:46:42,710 --> 00:46:40,240
william seabrook

1392
00:46:43,829 --> 00:46:42,720
in solemn procession they marched as

1393
00:46:46,950 --> 00:46:43,839
they sang

1394
00:46:49,430 --> 00:46:46,960
piercing the dolls and effigy

1395
00:46:51,510 --> 00:46:49,440
well authenticated reports from europe

1396
00:46:53,270 --> 00:46:51,520
still of a secret society which is

1397
00:46:56,309 --> 00:46:53,280
waging a

1398
00:46:59,510 --> 00:46:56,319
systematic black magic war

1399
00:47:01,030 --> 00:46:59,520
against hitler of course it all seems

1400
00:47:03,670 --> 00:47:01,040
crazy and personally

1401
00:47:04,470 --> 00:47:03,680
i want to have no part in the sinister

1402
00:47:07,990 --> 00:47:04,480
movement

1403
00:47:10,630 --> 00:47:08,000
but in my investigations into occultism

1404
00:47:13,190 --> 00:47:10,640
i have seen queer things happen to

1405
00:47:16,230 --> 00:47:13,200
well-educated apparently rational people

1406
00:47:19,109 --> 00:47:16,240
and while living with voodoo priests

1407
00:47:21,430 --> 00:47:19,119
i have actually felt the influence of

1408
00:47:23,829 --> 00:47:21,440
their strange powers

1409
00:47:24,710 --> 00:47:23,839
this fantastic movement now sweeping

1410
00:47:26,309 --> 00:47:24,720
europe

1411
00:47:28,390 --> 00:47:26,319
probably had its beginnings in the

1412
00:47:31,109 --> 00:47:28,400
united states at a meeting

1413
00:47:32,630 --> 00:47:31,119
at which i was present and let me pause

1414
00:47:34,309 --> 00:47:32,640
here to make a note about the use of the

1415
00:47:38,549 --> 00:47:34,319
word fantastic

1416
00:47:39,990 --> 00:47:38,559
in 1944 it did not mean in this context

1417
00:47:43,430 --> 00:47:40,000
anyway

1418
00:47:47,910 --> 00:47:43,440
wonderful terrific the best thing

1419
00:47:51,349 --> 00:47:47,920
uh fantastic meant more unbelievable

1420
00:47:53,670 --> 00:47:51,359
we read on on the wet windy night of

1421
00:47:56,790 --> 00:47:53,680
january the 2nd 1941

1422
00:47:58,069 --> 00:47:56,800
a group of young washingtonians crossed

1423
00:48:01,190 --> 00:47:58,079
the potomac

1424
00:48:02,870 --> 00:48:01,200
turned into a side road drove deep into

1425
00:48:06,069 --> 00:48:02,880
the woods of maryland

1426
00:48:09,910 --> 00:48:06,079
traversed a swamp and after some time

1427
00:48:13,510 --> 00:48:09,920
reached a dimly lighted cabin

1428
00:48:16,150 --> 00:48:13,520
hexing hitler from a

1429
00:48:19,510 --> 00:48:16,160
hearse-like limousine they dragged

1430
00:48:21,910 --> 00:48:19,520
life-sized effigy of adolf hitler

1431
00:48:23,430 --> 00:48:21,920
in a basket were a number of smaller

1432
00:48:26,790 --> 00:48:23,440
hitler images

1433
00:48:30,790 --> 00:48:26,800
a sinister black bag containing pins

1434
00:48:34,069 --> 00:48:30,800
needles nails hammers the mysterious

1435
00:48:34,950 --> 00:48:34,079
guests were met by charles tupper owner

1436
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:34,960
of the cabin

1437
00:48:39,030 --> 00:48:38,079
a young university man and by his older

1438
00:48:42,069 --> 00:48:39,040
brother richard

1439
00:48:44,470 --> 00:48:42,079
who was to direct the weird ritual

1440
00:48:46,390 --> 00:48:44,480
which lasted through most of the night

1441
00:48:47,109 --> 00:48:46,400
the group included a number of young

1442
00:48:49,829 --> 00:48:47,119
people

1443
00:48:50,630 --> 00:48:49,839
all serious mostly engaged in defense

1444
00:48:53,510 --> 00:48:50,640
work

1445
00:48:55,190 --> 00:48:53,520
i had been invited as a sort of

1446
00:48:58,470 --> 00:48:55,200
consulting quote

1447
00:49:01,589 --> 00:48:58,480
witch doctor end quote but richard tapa

1448
00:49:04,630 --> 00:49:01,599
a profound and hard-boiled if

1449
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:04,640
amateur student of the occult had

1450
00:49:10,309 --> 00:49:06,720
documented himself thoroughly

1451
00:49:13,430 --> 00:49:10,319
on death drum rhythms

1452
00:49:16,790 --> 00:49:13,440
incantations the whole quote doll

1453
00:49:19,990 --> 00:49:16,800
of death in quote ritual and

1454
00:49:22,549 --> 00:49:20,000
there was little i could add he

1455
00:49:23,349 --> 00:49:22,559
and his friends were not doing this as a

1456
00:49:26,150 --> 00:49:23,359
stunt

1457
00:49:28,630 --> 00:49:26,160
they were in deadly earnest after the

1458
00:49:31,990 --> 00:49:28,640
image and dolls were set up in the cabin

1459
00:49:33,109 --> 00:49:32,000
mr tapa arrayed himself in the voodoo

1460
00:49:37,270 --> 00:49:33,119
high priest's

1461
00:49:39,510 --> 00:49:37,280
robes and in turned adolf hitler

1462
00:49:40,390 --> 00:49:39,520
you are the enemy of man and of the

1463
00:49:43,510 --> 00:49:40,400
world

1464
00:49:45,670 --> 00:49:43,520
therefore we curse you by every teardrop

1465
00:49:46,630 --> 00:49:45,680
and drop of blood you have caused the

1466
00:49:49,109 --> 00:49:46,640
flow

1467
00:49:49,990 --> 00:49:49,119
we curse you with all the curses of all

1468
00:49:53,349 --> 00:49:50,000
the dead

1469
00:49:55,270 --> 00:49:53,359
who have cursed you the robed young men

1470
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:55,280
and women began to chant heavily in

1471
00:49:59,589 --> 00:49:56,640
unison

1472
00:50:02,230 --> 00:49:59,599
we are driving nails and needles death

1473
00:50:05,109 --> 00:50:02,240
pins death nails death needles

1474
00:50:06,950 --> 00:50:05,119
we are driving nails and needles into

1475
00:50:10,150 --> 00:50:06,960
adolf hitler's heart

1476
00:50:11,109 --> 00:50:10,160
in solemn procession they marched as

1477
00:50:13,990 --> 00:50:11,119
they sang

1478
00:50:16,309 --> 00:50:14,000
piercing the dolls and effigy at the

1479
00:50:19,589 --> 00:50:16,319
conclusion of this savage ceremony

1480
00:50:20,870 --> 00:50:19,599
all present joined in pronouncing the

1481
00:50:24,710 --> 00:50:20,880
death

1482
00:50:28,390 --> 00:50:24,720
curse the transfixed dolls were then

1483
00:50:32,230 --> 00:50:28,400
taken outside and buried face downward

1484
00:50:35,510 --> 00:50:32,240
in the swamp where they would rot

1485
00:50:36,069 --> 00:50:35,520
now what on earth you may well by now be

1486
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:36,079
asking

1487
00:50:39,190 --> 00:50:38,640
did these modern intelligent educated

1488
00:50:42,910 --> 00:50:39,200
young

1489
00:50:45,430 --> 00:50:42,920
people expect to accomplish by these

1490
00:50:46,470 --> 00:50:45,440
incantations against a powerful tyrant

1491
00:50:49,670 --> 00:50:46,480
from whom

1492
00:50:50,630 --> 00:50:49,680
they are separated by an ocean it can be

1493
00:50:52,630 --> 00:50:50,640
safely said

1494
00:50:54,230 --> 00:50:52,640
that they expected nothing through the

1495
00:50:57,910 --> 00:50:54,240
help of demons

1496
00:51:00,630 --> 00:50:57,920
in which none of them believed but

1497
00:51:02,630 --> 00:51:00,640
modern medical science has long agreed

1498
00:51:05,430 --> 00:51:02,640
that witchcraft

1499
00:51:05,910 --> 00:51:05,440
when it works is nothing more or less

1500
00:51:09,270 --> 00:51:05,920
than

1501
00:51:10,470 --> 00:51:09,280
psychotherapy in reverse and it is

1502
00:51:13,829 --> 00:51:10,480
established that

1503
00:51:16,790 --> 00:51:13,839
sticking pins in dolls or waxen

1504
00:51:18,630 --> 00:51:16,800
images can be absolutely deadly to the

1505
00:51:21,829 --> 00:51:18,640
victim who believes

1506
00:51:26,470 --> 00:51:21,839
in the occult power of such practices

1507
00:51:30,150 --> 00:51:26,480
knows they are being used and fears them

1508
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:30,160
cult sweeps europe it was already then

1509
00:51:34,069 --> 00:51:30,960
rumored

1510
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:34,079
that hitler a superstitious hysteric

1511
00:51:40,950 --> 00:51:37,680
was a fervent believer in black magic

1512
00:51:42,470 --> 00:51:40,960
so mr tapa and his group used every

1513
00:51:45,990 --> 00:51:42,480
means they could

1514
00:51:49,510 --> 00:51:46,000
to disseminate their quote hex hitler

1515
00:51:50,630 --> 00:51:49,520
in quote movement to see that news of it

1516
00:51:54,470 --> 00:51:50,640
reached europe

1517
00:51:56,470 --> 00:51:54,480
and berlin to gain adherence to arouse a

1518
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:56,480
worldwide quote

1519
00:52:03,030 --> 00:52:00,079
death doll end quote cabal

1520
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:03,040
now has come the news that anti-nazi

1521
00:52:08,069 --> 00:52:04,079
europe is being

1522
00:52:11,109 --> 00:52:08,079
swept away by a wave of quote death doll

1523
00:52:13,910 --> 00:52:11,119
end quote witchcraft and black magic it

1524
00:52:15,589 --> 00:52:13,920
is designed to bring about the downfall

1525
00:52:18,309 --> 00:52:15,599
and death of hitler

1526
00:52:19,510 --> 00:52:18,319
the facts were gathered by george f

1527
00:52:21,990 --> 00:52:19,520
allison

1528
00:52:23,750 --> 00:52:22,000
a london journalist the movement seems

1529
00:52:27,030 --> 00:52:23,760
to radiate from the belgian

1530
00:52:28,069 --> 00:52:27,040
town of hasset where members of a secret

1531
00:52:31,109 --> 00:52:28,079
society have

1532
00:52:31,990 --> 00:52:31,119
vowed thus to bring about the death of

1533
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,000
hitler

1534
00:52:35,829 --> 00:52:35,040
and his henchmen this society we are

1535
00:52:38,870 --> 00:52:35,839
informed

1536
00:52:42,390 --> 00:52:38,880
has distributed thousands of death dolls

1537
00:52:45,270 --> 00:52:42,400
exact miniatures of the german leaders

1538
00:52:47,589 --> 00:52:45,280
to patriots who have sworn to continue

1539
00:52:50,950 --> 00:52:47,599
digging pins into the images

1540
00:52:52,390 --> 00:52:50,960
of these hated nazi tyrants until they

1541
00:52:54,790 --> 00:52:52,400
finally succumb

1542
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:54,800
gestapo agents have been detailed to

1543
00:52:59,190 --> 00:52:56,559
stamp out this wave of

1544
00:52:59,990 --> 00:52:59,200
focused hatred but a movement of that

1545
00:53:02,390 --> 00:53:00,000
sort cannot

1546
00:53:03,270 --> 00:53:02,400
be stopped if its adherents believe in

1547
00:53:06,309 --> 00:53:03,280
it

1548
00:53:08,790 --> 00:53:06,319
outstanding examples of this tendency

1549
00:53:09,750 --> 00:53:08,800
are reported from the region of

1550
00:53:12,390 --> 00:53:09,760
aberville

1551
00:53:14,150 --> 00:53:12,400
from lyon and from the saint sulpus

1552
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:14,160
district of paris

1553
00:53:19,430 --> 00:53:16,960
strongholds of ancient faith fanaticism

1554
00:53:22,710 --> 00:53:19,440
superstition since the 13th century

1555
00:53:23,670 --> 00:53:22,720
so whether the death dolls multiplied by

1556
00:53:25,510 --> 00:53:23,680
thousands

1557
00:53:26,790 --> 00:53:25,520
ever accomplished the personal

1558
00:53:29,510 --> 00:53:26,800
destruction of hitler

1559
00:53:30,470 --> 00:53:29,520
or not a terrible force has been

1560
00:53:32,710 --> 00:53:30,480
unleashed

1561
00:53:35,109 --> 00:53:32,720
which may well play its part in the

1562
00:53:37,910 --> 00:53:35,119
eventual downfall of germany

1563
00:53:39,270 --> 00:53:37,920
the extent to which hitler and certain

1564
00:53:41,990 --> 00:53:39,280
of his associates

1565
00:53:42,710 --> 00:53:42,000
are obsessed by beliefs which might make

1566
00:53:45,910 --> 00:53:42,720
them

1567
00:53:48,230 --> 00:53:45,920
susceptible to the quote death doll

1568
00:53:50,069 --> 00:53:48,240
in quote attack is a matter which

1569
00:53:53,510 --> 00:53:50,079
psychiatrists and students of

1570
00:53:56,630 --> 00:53:53,520
mysticism find absorbing shaw

1571
00:53:58,470 --> 00:53:56,640
desmond founder of the institute of

1572
00:54:02,309 --> 00:53:58,480
psychical research

1573
00:54:05,750 --> 00:54:02,319
says hitler is steeped in black magic

1574
00:54:07,430 --> 00:54:05,760
when in doubt asserts desmond

1575
00:54:08,950 --> 00:54:07,440
he retires to his black hole at

1576
00:54:12,309 --> 00:54:08,960
birthday's garden

1577
00:54:12,870 --> 00:54:12,319
which he believes is impregnated by the

1578
00:54:16,630 --> 00:54:12,880
black

1579
00:54:17,750 --> 00:54:16,640
vibrations of his ritual invoking his

1580
00:54:21,030 --> 00:54:17,760
guides

1581
00:54:21,430 --> 00:54:21,040
he goes into a seeming trance and is

1582
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:21,440
then

1583
00:54:25,430 --> 00:54:24,319
possessed by the supposed spirits who

1584
00:54:28,710 --> 00:54:25,440
advise him

1585
00:54:29,510 --> 00:54:28,720
in a treatise on quote the occult causes

1586
00:54:32,790 --> 00:54:29,520
of the war

1587
00:54:35,910 --> 00:54:32,800
end quote the historian louis spence

1588
00:54:38,069 --> 00:54:35,920
states that mein kampf

1589
00:54:39,430 --> 00:54:38,079
was deeply influenced by hitler's

1590
00:54:43,109 --> 00:54:39,440
intimate contact with

1591
00:54:46,630 --> 00:54:43,119
alfred rosenberg a baltic mystic

1592
00:54:49,190 --> 00:54:46,640
who had a sinister faith in black magic

1593
00:54:50,789 --> 00:54:49,200
and the german people themselves

1594
00:54:53,510 --> 00:54:50,799
according to reports

1595
00:54:55,589 --> 00:54:53,520
have become prey to many superstitions

1596
00:54:58,710 --> 00:54:55,599
as a result of depression over

1597
00:55:01,270 --> 00:54:58,720
war reverses thus

1598
00:55:03,109 --> 00:55:01,280
such a simple event as the birth of a

1599
00:55:06,630 --> 00:55:03,119
baby elephant in a german

1600
00:55:08,950 --> 00:55:06,640
zoo gave rise recently to a wave of

1601
00:55:10,950 --> 00:55:08,960
peace talk it happened that a baby

1602
00:55:14,470 --> 00:55:10,960
elephant was born in the same

1603
00:55:17,510 --> 00:55:14,480
zoo in 1871

1604
00:55:21,030 --> 00:55:17,520
and another in 1918

1605
00:55:24,230 --> 00:55:21,040
just before the world war one armistice

1606
00:55:24,630 --> 00:55:24,240
that with the recent birth was enough to

1607
00:55:27,910 --> 00:55:24,640
make

1608
00:55:30,789 --> 00:55:27,920
many germans think the present conflict

1609
00:55:32,309 --> 00:55:30,799
was also drawing to a close there are

1610
00:55:34,950 --> 00:55:32,319
certain signs

1611
00:55:37,030 --> 00:55:34,960
as black magicians would call them about

1612
00:55:39,910 --> 00:55:37,040
the head of adolf hitler

1613
00:55:41,829 --> 00:55:39,920
that will bode ill for anyone who comes

1614
00:55:44,870 --> 00:55:41,839
into close contact with him

1615
00:55:48,630 --> 00:55:44,880
in his public orations there is a weird

1616
00:55:51,750 --> 00:55:48,640
chanting effect that almost hypnotizes

1617
00:55:52,710 --> 00:55:51,760
its hearers it is an effect well

1618
00:55:55,829 --> 00:55:52,720
understood by

1619
00:55:58,549 --> 00:55:55,839
voodooists who use it themselves

1620
00:55:59,829 --> 00:55:58,559
and after hearing it just once i was

1621
00:56:02,789 --> 00:55:59,839
personally convinced

1622
00:56:03,829 --> 00:56:02,799
that the mystic of betheth garden had

1623
00:56:07,030 --> 00:56:03,839
made a close and

1624
00:56:09,270 --> 00:56:07,040
intimate study of diablism

1625
00:56:11,190 --> 00:56:09,280
and i've just discovered that word for

1626
00:56:15,430 --> 00:56:11,200
myself it means

1627
00:56:18,789 --> 00:56:15,440
diablism worship of the devil

1628
00:56:21,430 --> 00:56:18,799
we read on personally i don't

1629
00:56:22,309 --> 00:56:21,440
dally with witchcraft anymore but if i

1630
00:56:25,190 --> 00:56:22,319
did

1631
00:56:26,390 --> 00:56:25,200
i should be very much tempted to do a

1632
00:56:30,309 --> 00:56:26,400
little

1633
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:30,319
doll pinning of my own

1634
00:56:34,870 --> 00:56:32,880
yeah that's probably the strangest or

1635
00:56:38,870 --> 00:56:34,880
one of the strangest stories

1636
00:56:41,589 --> 00:56:38,880
we've encountered in the trove archives

1637
00:56:43,510 --> 00:56:41,599
and finally we come to the pages of the

1638
00:56:48,030 --> 00:56:43,520
daily telegraph in sydney

1639
00:56:51,430 --> 00:56:48,040
published on the 17th of june

1640
00:56:55,589 --> 00:56:51,440
1932 a witch-hunt

1641
00:56:58,950 --> 00:56:55,599
black magic test with a goat

1642
00:56:59,990 --> 00:56:58,960
weird deed special service london

1643
00:57:02,549 --> 00:57:00,000
thursday

1644
00:57:03,670 --> 00:57:02,559
a desperate search is being made to find

1645
00:57:06,789 --> 00:57:03,680
a witch

1646
00:57:10,230 --> 00:57:06,799
to mix the ointment for the black magic

1647
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:10,240
test which is to be made on broken peak

1648
00:57:16,549 --> 00:57:13,440
in the hearts mountains at the full

1649
00:57:19,750 --> 00:57:16,559
moon frarland uttabon is

1650
00:57:22,390 --> 00:57:19,760
to anoint a he goat with the

1651
00:57:23,910 --> 00:57:22,400
preparation in accordance with an

1652
00:57:26,309 --> 00:57:23,920
ancient recipe

1653
00:57:27,750 --> 00:57:26,319
when the animal is expected to turn into

1654
00:57:31,829 --> 00:57:27,760
a quote

1655
00:57:35,109 --> 00:57:31,839
youth of surpassing beauty end quote

1656
00:57:38,390 --> 00:57:35,119
wild search mr

1657
00:57:39,430 --> 00:57:38,400
price of the psychological research

1658
00:57:40,950 --> 00:57:39,440
laboratory

1659
00:57:42,950 --> 00:57:40,960
accompanied by professors of the

1660
00:57:44,710 --> 00:57:42,960
gottingen university

1661
00:57:46,150 --> 00:57:44,720
have been dashing through the haas

1662
00:57:49,829 --> 00:57:46,160
mountain villages

1663
00:57:53,190 --> 00:57:49,839
in a high-powered motorcar in search of

1664
00:57:55,589 --> 00:57:53,200
a witch the hunt failed but tonight

1665
00:57:56,309 --> 00:57:55,599
they discovered an old woman who knows a

1666
00:57:59,349 --> 00:57:56,319
witch

1667
00:57:59,990 --> 00:57:59,359
and is now trying to find her as she

1668
00:58:03,030 --> 00:58:00,000
must be

1669
00:58:05,109 --> 00:58:03,040
produced before friday in a few hours mr

1670
00:58:05,670 --> 00:58:05,119
price and the professors hope to be

1671
00:58:08,150 --> 00:58:05,680
sitting

1672
00:58:11,030 --> 00:58:08,160
around the cauldron listening to the

1673
00:58:14,230 --> 00:58:11,040
witch's mystical outpourings over the

1674
00:58:17,510 --> 00:58:14,240
ghastly mixture of bat's blood and

1675
00:58:19,589 --> 00:58:17,520
church bell scrapings there will be

1676
00:58:21,510 --> 00:58:19,599
considerable gaps in the ranks of the

1677
00:58:24,630 --> 00:58:21,520
distinguished attendants

1678
00:58:25,349 --> 00:58:24,640
at broken ceremony as four of the

1679
00:58:28,670 --> 00:58:25,359
goddamn

1680
00:58:31,589 --> 00:58:28,680
professors have been suddenly

1681
00:58:32,710 --> 00:58:31,599
incapacitated superstitious people

1682
00:58:35,030 --> 00:58:32,720
declare that this

1683
00:58:36,349 --> 00:58:35,040
is a warning from the witches of the

1684
00:58:40,230 --> 00:58:36,359
danger of

1685
00:58:44,390 --> 00:58:40,240
deriding their nefarious art

1686
00:58:47,190 --> 00:58:44,400
magic circle mr price is unperturbed

1687
00:58:47,829 --> 00:58:47,200
fraulein uttabon is already on the

1688
00:58:51,109 --> 00:58:47,839
mountain

1689
00:58:52,470 --> 00:58:51,119
where a magic circle in mosaic is nearly

1690
00:58:56,069 --> 00:58:52,480
ready

1691
00:58:58,309 --> 00:58:56,079
the goat destined for the experiment

1692
00:58:59,270 --> 00:58:58,319
has been kept in seclusion since its

1693
00:59:02,230 --> 00:58:59,280
birth so

1694
00:59:04,789 --> 00:59:02,240
it has had no contamination from the

1695
00:59:07,270 --> 00:59:04,799
outside world thousands of

1696
00:59:08,309 --> 00:59:07,280
germans are expected to swarm the

1697
00:59:11,109 --> 00:59:08,319
mountainside

1698
00:59:12,309 --> 00:59:11,119
to watch the weird scene under

1699
00:59:14,789 --> 00:59:12,319
floodlights

1700
00:59:15,829 --> 00:59:14,799
the participants are to wear dress

1701
00:59:18,549 --> 00:59:15,839
clothes

1702
00:59:19,510 --> 00:59:18,559
as the experiment is regarded as a

1703
00:59:22,789 --> 00:59:19,520
tribute

1704
00:59:25,109 --> 00:59:22,799
to gerther whose spirit however

1705
00:59:26,069 --> 00:59:25,119
is likely to view with misgiving the

1706
00:59:32,630 --> 00:59:26,079
violation

1707
00:59:34,870 --> 00:59:32,640
of the witch's dancing place

1708
00:59:36,920 --> 00:59:34,880
and i thought the last story was a bit

1709
00:59:39,510 --> 00:59:36,930
strange

1710
00:59:41,829 --> 00:59:39,520
[Music]

1711
00:59:42,630 --> 00:59:41,839
now that was just a sample of some of

1712
00:59:45,430 --> 00:59:42,640
the uh

1713
00:59:46,470 --> 00:59:45,440
returns i found when i ran a search for

1714
00:59:49,270 --> 00:59:46,480
witches

1715
00:59:50,789 --> 00:59:49,280
and witchcraft there are many many more

1716
00:59:53,990 --> 00:59:50,799
and maybe one day i

1717
00:59:56,549 --> 00:59:54,000
will revisit the subject

1718
00:59:59,109 --> 00:59:56,559
but you can visit and revisit many

1719
01:00:03,190 --> 00:59:59,119
subjects by visiting trove

1720
01:00:06,950 --> 01:00:03,200
the trove archives at trove.nla.gov

1721
01:00:07,750 --> 01:00:06,960
dot a u and you too can discover stories

1722
01:00:10,870 --> 01:00:07,760
of

1723
01:00:13,109 --> 01:00:10,880
witches pigs goats

1724
01:00:14,740 --> 01:00:13,119
and hitler now that is a strange

1725
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:14,750
combination

1726
01:00:34,150 --> 01:00:31,990
thank you for listening to this skeptic

1727
01:00:35,589 --> 01:00:34,160
zone podcast this week next week on the

1728
01:00:37,430 --> 01:00:35,599
show i think

1729
01:00:40,829 --> 01:00:37,440
i think i'll troll through the digital

1730
01:00:42,309 --> 01:00:40,839
archives and find references to jack the

1731
01:00:45,190 --> 01:00:42,319
ripper and

1732
01:00:46,309 --> 01:00:45,200
psychics or clairvoyance or something

1733
01:00:48,789 --> 01:00:46,319
like that

1734
01:00:49,510 --> 01:00:48,799
and just a quick look i was having

1735
01:00:51,670 --> 01:00:49,520
before

1736
01:00:54,230 --> 01:00:51,680
there are many times over the years

1737
01:00:57,109 --> 01:00:54,240
where psychics have claimed

1738
01:00:57,990 --> 01:00:57,119
to know the identity of jack the ripper

1739
01:00:59,670 --> 01:00:58,000
and

1740
01:01:01,270 --> 01:00:59,680
it's a fascinating topic a couple of

1741
01:01:03,030 --> 01:01:01,280
years ago i really got sucked into the

1742
01:01:05,829 --> 01:01:03,040
jack the ripper rabbit hole

1743
01:01:06,549 --> 01:01:05,839
of watching endless documentaries on the

1744
01:01:09,670 --> 01:01:06,559
topic

1745
01:01:10,870 --> 01:01:09,680
uh going back decades on youtube in fact

1746
01:01:13,910 --> 01:01:10,880
there are lots of

1747
01:01:17,430 --> 01:01:13,920
youtube videos about jack the ripper and

1748
01:01:18,950 --> 01:01:17,440
quite a few about psychics who claim to

1749
01:01:21,430 --> 01:01:18,960
have discovered the real

1750
01:01:23,670 --> 01:01:21,440
identity of jack the ripper so that's

1751
01:01:25,349 --> 01:01:23,680
something to look forward to next week

1752
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:25,359
as much as one can look forward to

1753
01:01:29,510 --> 01:01:26,880
anything with jack the ripper

1754
01:01:31,109 --> 01:01:29,520
thank you to those people who continue

1755
01:01:32,549 --> 01:01:31,119
to support the skeptic zone and thank

1756
01:01:35,829 --> 01:01:32,559
you to those people who have

1757
01:01:36,150 --> 01:01:35,839
upped their contribution over the last

1758
01:01:38,710 --> 01:01:36,160
week

1759
01:01:40,309 --> 01:01:38,720
very much appreciated and if you haven't

1760
01:01:42,230 --> 01:01:40,319
subscribed to the skeptic zone via

1761
01:01:42,950 --> 01:01:42,240
patreon or paypal i invite you to do

1762
01:01:46,309 --> 01:01:42,960
this show

1763
01:01:46,710 --> 01:01:46,319
at skepticzone.tv you don't have to of

1764
01:01:48,789 --> 01:01:46,720
course

1765
01:01:50,230 --> 01:01:48,799
the show is free it will always be free

1766
01:01:51,829 --> 01:01:50,240
for you to listen to

1767
01:01:54,230 --> 01:01:51,839
but if you enjoy the show if it means

1768
01:01:56,950 --> 01:01:54,240
something to you then

1769
01:01:58,470 --> 01:01:56,960
uh five dollars a month or whatever you

1770
01:02:00,630 --> 01:01:58,480
care to contribute

1771
01:02:01,990 --> 01:02:00,640
means a lot to the show it means the

1772
01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:02,000
show keeps going

1773
01:02:05,750 --> 01:02:04,240
but now it's time for me to go to get

1774
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:05,760
going go

1775
01:02:09,029 --> 01:02:07,440
i'm not sure what i'm going to do today

1776
01:02:11,829 --> 01:02:09,039
because it's locked down i might

1777
01:02:12,950 --> 01:02:11,839
start researching next week's episode

1778
01:02:14,950 --> 01:02:12,960
but for now

1779
01:02:20,789 --> 01:02:14,960
this is richard saunders signing off

1780
01:02:22,549 --> 01:02:20,799
from sydney australia

1781
01:02:23,990 --> 01:02:22,559
you've been listening to the skeptic

1782
01:02:27,230 --> 01:02:24,000
zone podcast

1783
01:02:28,549 --> 01:02:27,240
please visit our website at

1784
01:02:31,670 --> 01:02:28,559
www.skepticzone.tv

1785
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:31,680
for show notes contacts and to access

1786
01:02:37,190 --> 01:02:33,599
the back catalog of episodes

1787
01:02:39,190 --> 01:02:37,200
going back to 2008. you can follow the

1788
01:02:42,710 --> 01:02:39,200
skepticzone podcast on twitter

1789
01:02:46,230 --> 01:02:42,720
at skepticzone visit our facebook page

1790
01:02:47,589 --> 01:02:46,240
or leave a review on itunes you can also

1791
01:02:50,870 --> 01:02:47,599
support the skeptic zone

1792
01:02:51,589 --> 01:02:50,880
via patreon or paypal the skeptic zone

1793
01:02:54,470 --> 01:02:51,599
podcast

1794
01:02:56,309 --> 01:02:54,480
is an independent production the views

1795
01:02:56,710 --> 01:02:56,319
and opinions expressed on the skeptic

1796
01:02:58,710 --> 01:02:56,720
zone

1797
01:03:00,630 --> 01:02:58,720
are not necessarily those of australian

1798
01:03:02,230 --> 01:03:00,640
skeptics or any other

1799
01:03:14,470 --> 01:03:02,240
skeptical organization

1800
01:03:17,910 --> 01:03:16,230
hello to the people who wait after the

1801
01:03:19,510 --> 01:03:17,920
music for the dice game we haven't had

1802
01:03:22,710 --> 01:03:19,520
it for a few weeks

1803
01:03:27,430 --> 01:03:22,720
this week i thought i'd be be

1804
01:03:30,470 --> 01:03:27,440
very um easy on everybody it's a d4

1805
01:03:31,589 --> 01:03:30,480
a four-sided die in the shape of a

1806
01:03:33,750 --> 01:03:31,599
pyramid

1807
01:03:34,789 --> 01:03:33,760
here we go roll one so you've got a one

1808
01:03:36,390 --> 01:03:34,799
in four chance

1809
01:03:37,050 --> 01:03:36,400
guess away what number do you think it's

1810
01:03:38,549 --> 01:03:37,060
going to be

1811
01:03:40,789 --> 01:03:38,559
[Music]

1812
01:03:42,470 --> 01:03:40,799
a two today's first number is two and

1813
01:03:43,270 --> 01:03:42,480
this die is a little bit too big to fit

1814
01:03:45,109 --> 01:03:43,280
into my

1815
01:03:48,069 --> 01:03:45,119
wonderful dice rolling contraptions i'll

1816
01:03:51,829 --> 01:03:48,079
just do it by hand hand rolling die

1817
01:03:55,109 --> 01:03:51,839
two next number one

1818
01:03:56,789 --> 01:03:55,119
a two and a one so guess away

1819
01:03:58,230 --> 01:03:56,799
use your psychic powers or whatever you

1820
01:04:00,870 --> 01:03:58,240
like to do